RE: [IAC++] How Denmark has curbed corruption? c link

Mr. Desai,

Your suggestion reg-decentralisation is good but how and who to do this. Central and State Govts. are not willing to part with their powers. See how the Panchayat at village level and mucipalities are working inspite of Panchayat Raj bill and even amendments to the constitution.

2. For Police reforms it is  a wishful thinking  The Govts are not prepared to give up their hold. Even the directions of the Supreme Court for reforms have not been implemented regarding tenure and transfer policies.

3. Bringing religion into corruption or quoting examples from Europe have no meaning in the Indian context..It is not only monetary corruption at local level to a policeman or municipal employee. think of the political and business corruption at the higher level and how to eradicate it.

JKGaur.

CC: iac@lists.riseup.net; mkkhera@yahoo.com; colarun.joshi@gmail.com
From: jawsdesai@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 16:31:40 -0500
To: drspmathew@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [IAC++] How Denmark has curbed corruption? c link

Mr. Peedikayil,
 
If I misstated something or misunderstood your point, I am quite willing to accept my mistake, no need to be sarcastic.
 
Agreed, Saudi Arabia was probably not a good analogy in this context. But I understood your point to mean that we need a change of heart to a particular spiritual philosophy in order to institute change, which I disagreed with. 
 
If your point was simply that a change of heart is needed, then OK but... personally I think Europe changed for the better when they got out of a feudal and irrational mindset (e.g., the Inquisition); and had a spirit of open inquiry, which led first to the Renaissance, and then the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions.
 
In the Indian context, in my view, the change required consists of:
1. Decentralize power/authority by making decisions at the local level;
2. importantly, police need to be living locally on a permanent basis, so they're personally invested in the communities they serve.
3. Therefore, for example, no minister should have the power to transfer officials, especially to 'punishment' postings;
4. Instead, police and so on must be accountable to locally elected officials;
5. Equally their employment decisions must be at the local level, even if they get some standard benefits as state employees.
 
 
Just some ideas from what seems to work in other countries.
 
Regards,
Jawahar
 
 
 
On Nov 21, 2012, at 10:30 PM, Mathew Peedikayil <drspmathew@gmail.com> wrote:
 
> People in India have tried every means to eradicate corruption
> without success, and now we have people like you who are there to
> prevent the one method that works without even understanding it. Thank
> you!
> For your information, it is not religion that changes a nation, and
> the countries you quoted are not even 'Christian'.
> It is when people individually and collectively have a change of heart
> that a nation changes, as it happened in Europe.
> Repentance and turning away from corrupt practices go together, and it
> is a matter of the person's heart as Arun Joshi correctly pointed out.
> It is not about following rituals or religion!
> 
> Regards,
> Mathew S P
> www.drspmathew.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/22/12, Jawahar Desai <jawsdesai@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Shri Mathew Peedikayil / Shri Vishal Mangalwadi,
>> 
>> Let us not bring a particular religion into this. Everyone has their own
>> faith/belief, or none, and this is not a forum for proselytisation.
>> 
>> Anyway, your point is highly debatable to say the least. Completely almost
>> 100% "Bible-following" countries like Greece and Russia are highly corrupt.
>> Whereas secular and very less religious countries like Denmark and Sweden
>> are not at all corrupt. And non so-called "Biblical" countries like
>> Singapore are among the most transparent.
>> 
>> India is fortunate to have a clear separation of Church and State, let's
>> keep it that way. The last thing we want is to become is a place like Saudi
>> Arabia or Iran, or even a milder version like Russia, where there is no
>> tolerance, leave alone respect, for diverse beliefs.
>> 
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jawahar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> From: Mathew Peedikayil <drspmathew@gmail.com>
>>> Date: November 21, 2012 4:11:42 AM EST
>>> To: iac@lists.riseup.net
>>> Subject: Re: [IAC++] How Denmark has curbed corruption? c link
>>> Reply-To: iac@lists.riseup.net
>>> 
>>> Arun Joshi has hit the nail on the problem... our heart. No matter what
>>> the technology, the human mind can devise ways to fool it.
>>> That is why a change of heart is most important.
>>> The only thing that has ever worked is what changed Europe: The
>>> Reformation, which started with Martin Luther.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The great challenge of every civilization and culture throughout world
>>> history has been to find a source of meaning, a ground from which it can
>>> act. Some societies have looked to many local and regional gods. Others
>>> have postulated that life's goal is to achieve oneness with the absolute
>>> nothingness that constitutes ultimate reality. Still others have looked to
>>> esoteric philosophic and religious mysteries. However, each of these has
>>> failed to provide the basis for a lasting and ascendant civilization.
>>> But the only civilization that has looked largely to the Bible for its
>>> inspiration, the West, has been able to conquer human cruelty,
>>> hopelessness and degradation with such success that it has become the envy
>>> of the rest of the world.
>>> 
>>> Vishal Mangalwadi
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 1:32 PM, arun joshi <colarun.joshi@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Dear Col Khera,
>>> Pardon the interruption.
>>> I was fortunate to attend a course MMA (ADP) in 1987 (Middle Management
>>> appreciation- automated data processing) There was one prayer our
>>> instructors recited daily.........
>>> "Gentlemen ,these systems as they evolve are support systems. Remember it
>>> is absolutely essential for the man behind the machine to be true to his
>>> job.
>>> I fully subscribe to your views of e governance. It will assist in
>>> reducing corruption to a discernible extent. However not until our genes
>>> (especially Govt servants) are completely overhauled would we see an
>>> improvement.
>>> I am presently struggling to obtain a birth certificate. Struggling
>>> because I refused to pay the Lady Rs 1000/-. RTI and a personal interview
>>> with the Commissioner of the City has not helped as yet.
>>> Nevertheless I have not yet lost hope.
>>> With Regards
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Mahesh Khera <mkkhera@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Dear M/s Kris and Iftikhar,
>>> 
>>> We must thank you for bringing out such live examples to the people of
>>> India. I am happy to see this as also the curiosity of the people as to
>>> when a small democratic country like Denmark can be No 1 least corrupt
>>> country then India the world's greatest democracy can also be similar.
>>> 
>>> I must share with you that in Oct 2010, in a seminar on mobile broadband,
>>> I brought out that Denmark has achieved No 1 rank in least corrupt index
>>> due to their commitment to implement their national e governance program.
>>> The two secys to the government of India were on the chair. Secy DoT just
>>> dismissed me that I do not know any thing that India has a National E
>>> Governance Plan (NeGP) 2005 and this is under implementation. The other
>>> gentleman, Chairman TRAI did appreciate what I said and he was of the
>>> opinion that India seriously needs to look at what Denmark has done. For
>>> Danish NeGP, they have had huge broadband penetration in the country over
>>> which their NeGP, inter-alia,  touching upon every national infrastructure
>>> project right from e-RFP, to e-tendering, e-bidding, e-purchase order,
>>> e-implementation monitoring and e-operations monitoring has been included.
>>> You can imagine our NeGP 2005, the less said the better. We had 2G scam,
>>> CWG scam, Coal scam, host of mining, land, power scams and so on. Going
>>> forward, we have a $ trillion financial outlay in our 5 year plan, an
>>> unlimited money for nation building and some people must be licking their
>>> fingers. Suppose, we were actually implementing the real NeGP 2005, all
>>> these scams would not have been there. If at all some one does then the e
>>> evidence which is indelible in nature can nail the person(s) and within
>>> less than a year, the guilty is/are prosecuted, sentenced and find
>>> themselves in jail. Imagine, the huge deterrent which true NeGP can bring
>>> to the corruption. This is what Denmark has successfully implemented.
>>> 
>>> I would be happy to contribute to the real India's NeGP through Telecom,
>>> Media and Technology (TMT) which in conjunction with Jan Lok Pal can give
>>> 90 % relief to India from corruption. For more details, would request you
>>> to please click the URL  http://www.ktmt.in/Recent%20News/News_24.aspx
>>> 
>>> With warm regards,
>>> 
>>> Col Mahesh Khera
>>> 
>>> From: Kris Dev <krisdev@gmail.com>
>>> To: iac@lists.riseup.net; iftikhar.gilani@gmail.com
>>> Sent: Monday, 19 November 2012 11:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [IAC++] How Denmark has curbed corruption? c link
>>> 
>>> Iftikar,
>>> 
>>> I like the way Denmark has done. Do you think it's possible in India? If
>>> yes, how do we make it happen?
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Kris Dev
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2012/11/18 Iftikhar Gilani <iftikhar.gilani@gmail.com>
>>> How Denmark is least corrupt country?
>>> 
>>> http://epaper.dnaindia.com/story.aspx?id=31903&boxid=23569&ed_date=2012-11-13&ed_code=820009&ed_page=1
>>> 
>>> WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> "He/she should not do that which he/she knows to be wrong, and suffer the
>>> consequence whatever it may be, this is the key to the use of soul-force."
>>> ( Hind Swaraj , p. 69).
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Col Arun Joshi(Veteran)
>>> The INFANTEER
>>> CONSERVE WATER
>>> USE BIODEGRADABLE PACKING MATERIAL
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dr. Mathew S P
>>> Mumbai
>>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Mathew S P
> Mumbai

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