Re: [IAC#RG] NOW RANJAN GOGOI IS ANOTHER P.SATHASIVAM

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WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.inI do not know your age.Presumbaly too young to remember history Ahmedlessons.Where were you when F Ali  signed the national emergency order in 1975. You better believe that NAMO was not the PM.
Secondly- this one U will remember -about 300000 Kashmiris were compelled to flea Kmr their home for 5000 years-inspite of presence of 7 lac uniformed military/paramilitary forces in the Valley .NAMO was not our PM .     Pl rethink rather than whip  a running horse. Razdan Omkar

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On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 14:10, Radha Krishnan RN

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Re: [IAC#RG] Alternate views on minorities, population, current events, and governance

To add to what Manohar Sharmaji has said. Joya Royji has put an interesting question. He has mentioned four states which oppose CAA. Telangana(UDF), West Bengal (Trinamool Congress), Tamil Nadu( ADMK)  , Kerala ( CPI (M)). All these parties have a single point agenda- to make India BJP Mukt. They have very little else in common. As against that we have 29 States in India. Are we to assume that the remaining 25 states are Gaddars, anti national and traitors? And so far no one has (at least on this forum) come up with any specific objections that they have to CAA. Does anyone really have any doubt that the opposition to CAA is politically motivated?

All credit for Joya Royji for accepting some responsibility for the misdeeds of his ancestors. We should all learn from him. But I would suggest to him to put that behind him and not continue to be overburdened with a sense of guilt.  Let us move on . In the medieval ages, as he has brought out, Brahmins exploited lower castes and tribals. British exploited Indians. Muslims massacred Hindus. But we are now in the 21st century. All governments , across all parties, after our independence have formed policies and laws to help the Dalits , scheduled castes and tribals to come into the mainstream of life. To such an extent that many communities are trying to get themselves a scheduled caste status, as there is a perceived advantage now in being classified as scheduled caste.We have had some success in rehabilitating them. No doubt a lot more remains to be done.

Let us emphasise on what needs to be done rather than to wallow endlessly in a sense of guilt.

Jai Hind

Anand Gangoli

On Friday, March 20, 2020, Manohar Sharma <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:

Starting a reply with 'comments like this need no response' and then go on to reply in the form clarifying misrepresentation intrinsically has arrogance built in it.Be that as it may.
If you think this govt's mindset is fascist etc you are welcome to your opinions.
Your statement 'if the CAA were relevant to infiltration anywhere outside the northeastern states,why are many legislative assemblies are refusing to accept in its present form'."Are they then composed of anti-national, traitors-gaddars,who should be summarily shot ?
First of all, CAA  has nothing to do with infiltration,it's about giving citizenship to religiously persecuted from Pakistan, Bangladesh n Afganistan.
All legislative assemblies who have passed resolutions aganist the CAA are totally unconstitutional as the citizenship n it's variations comes under 'union list' of Indian constitution.I presume you are aware of union ,state n concurrent lists.
Subsequent part of your statement is just your own imagination n deserves no comment.
Your information or knowledge from personal  friends n relatives is not privy to me.I claim no such access of any kind whatsoever as for as Delhi riots are concerned.Thats why I said n maintain, that let the enquiry report be out to know the truth.Your emphasis that these sources are  'non muslims' is really very touching.
Just because it's the girls that are defending boys(co students)  doesn't say law shouldn't be implemented.Before you jump to any conclusion,let it be decided after the enquiry.Because the 'sheroes' of Burkha Dutt were supporting the call of Sharjeel Imam who lectured the assembled people as to how to separate Assam by blocking the chicken neck like Shaheen Bagh.
Your statement 'is protest against bad policies is anti national'.The answer is clear No.But protests don't mean burning of buses,trains, railway stations (WB) or destruction of  public property.Their protests have absolutely no authority to curb others rights to live a normal life like blocking of a road etc.
When you bring in the history of 700 year old n what actions or atrocities your ancestors did, it obviously doesn't mean that you  agree n follow the same principles.Infact it's quite clear as you are critiquing them so you disagree with them.Well for the record let me state unequivocally that I abhor those acts myself too.
I can't talk of 700 years but in the year 1963 when I was to join IAF  training as a cadet,my mother asked my father to conduct the ritual of तुला दान where grains n all kinds of metals equal to my weight are given as charity.It was supervised by my grandfather a प्रकांड पंडित.Please know that the all the grains n metals were given to family barber n sweeper who use to collect  our night soil.I was told to  wash their feet, offer them food n make equal halves n give it to them seek blessings by touching their feet.They in turn blessed me with long n prosperous life.
Your critique of your own community is welcome.But creation of narratives based on  700 year old history n the 19 century reports vindicates my statement of flogging a dead horse n worse they  generate hatred against majority community.
Things are changing like I explained in my previous write up.Old history has good n bad points both.Your  previous write up clearly brings out Hindu vs Muslims n how they are being victimized.Let me categorically say that my experience is just the opposite.More on that some other time.
Manohar Sharma

---

Comments like this need no response but I need to clarify two things that misrepresent what I said. This happens when intellectual adversaries read and see completely different sets of data, be they news clips, social media videos, government pronouncements on recent events and first hand accounts of those events, or when they see the same data sets and get a completely different picture of what is really happening, according to.their habitual biases.

My bias is to listen to the accounts of the victims of mob riots not of the perpetrators or instigators such as those who want their party followers or mobs to shoot people who object to the NRC-CAA. My idea of India is certainly not that of the fascist, anti-minority, anti-dissent, anti-democratic mindset of the present leadership. If the CAA were relevant to concerns about infiltration anywhere outside the North-Eastern states, why are many legislative assemblies in India refusing to accept it in its present form? Telengana, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal, Kerala have all objected to these legislations. Are they all then composed of anti-national 'traitors' - 'gaddars' who should be summarily shot ?

My information on the injured girl students of Jamia who suffered serious injuries below their waists down to their private parts from police blows and prods comes from friends and relatives (non-Muslim, FYI) who are medicos/doctorates) who have seen their condition and heard their accounts of what happened. FYI, Jamia had many Hindu students who protested against the CAA alongside the Muslim students. But I also watched - as you must have - that video of the two Jamia girls preventing police from attacking their male co-student. You can see how police, or hired goons in police uniforms conveniently supplied to them, use their lathis as bayonets to poke flesh and pierce internal organs. In Jamia they blinded a.student. In JNU police beat up a blind student. Several Jamia girls needed surgery after the police attack. You would have seen the same videos and interviews. Is protest against bad government policies 'anti-national'? When students become docile like sheep a country is doomed.

Secondly, I can't 'spread hate' against Brahmins who were my forebears. But I can critique the actions and mind-sets of some of them. 700 years ago when my Brahmin ancestors moved into the part of Bengal called Sylhet, now in Bangladesh, my father's birthplace, they systematically dispossesed the original adivasis - Khasis, Garos and Jaintias - driving these tribes into the hilly regions to the North, now known as Meghalaya. Brahmin and Rajput families took over all the rich cultivable lands of North Bengal. I have seen the same thing happen in Bihar and Jharkhand. Except that since upper castes have much greater mobility, access to modern education and economic opportunities, the educated among them lose their dependence on revenues from ancestral lands. Their dominance in rural areas has since been taken over by the OBCs in these two states except where Bhumihars - 'those who grab land' - still hold sway. Either way, it is the original settlers, the adivasis and many of those that we call SCs, who have been dispossesed, emisserated, trampled upon, in Eastern India. From my observations in the field including in my paternal ancestral village in Sylhet, my maternal ancestral area of Chandernagore, and my reading of 19th century  ethnographies, histories, colonial despatches and District Gazetteers of these places I can see what people of 'my kind' have done to the original ST-SC populations who first occupied these lands. Isn't it laughable to contend that my criticism of my own community constitutes an attempt to 'spread hatred'  against a particular community ?! 

Joya Roy

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 18:05 Manohar Sharma, <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:

There are patently wrong statements made in Jaya Roy's write up
1.The killings in Delhi riots have had casualties on majority n minority communities equally (quote Rajdeep Sardesai)
2.The Jamia case still is under enquiry n full details are not out as yet.If they are ,then please put them up for public view. There are plenty of videos which indicate that they were not studemts at all but stone pelters brought in for the specified purpose.Studying in libarary with faces covered is rather odd,at least to me.But like I said,let the enquiry decide.
3.The CAA doesn't take anybody's citizenship.Mr Harish Salve has categorically negated all such rumours,agendas n lies on NDTV .The CAA is in SC n whether it's constitutional or not,they will take the call.Harish Salve thinks that CAA is constitutional n is the need to fullfill the promises made by our founding fathers
4.There is a narrative which is trying to portray Brahmins, upper castes etc in a planned manner which is replica of what Rajiv Malhotra decribes in his book 'Breaking India'.Looking at the manner these words are mentioned,there is clear motive of creating hatred against the majority community.This kind of flogging the dead horse has been going on in a systematic manner with a clear agenda since long. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER FORWARDED,OFFERED ANY KIND OF SOLUTIONS EXCEPT GENERATING HATRED WHICH IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT JUST CREATING FAULT LINES WHERE THEY DONT EXIST BUT EXPLOITING ALL THOSE WHERE SUCH FAULT LINES EXIST . Examples of foreign countries don't offer solutions.The Indian ground realities need to be checked n reported.I had earlier reported of lack of any discrimination during भंडारा in temples complexes in the village where I stay.I would like to add that a sample of ten villages who are involved in these three temples,must be considered a sure shot forward movement and not just wishy washy illusion.
Manohar Sharma


________________________________
From: indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net <indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net> on behalf of Prodipto Roy <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 2:12:32 PM
To: Gopalkrishnan iyer <iyer_ga@yahoo.com>; indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Brahminical views on minorities, population, current events, and governance

It's typical of the selective perceptions of upper castes that they ignore both the latest official data analyses on population growth and the hate crimes and violence including rape, lynchings and murder of minority community members such as happened recently in North East Delhi with full cooperation of the police (not under Delhi govt.but under the central Home Ministry).

They won't deign to see news videos or read about police attacking students in Jamia and JNU using their lathis not as sticks to  beat people with but as lethal bayonets. Thus they won't care to learn about how most of the girl students injured in the second round of police violence against Jamia protesters were hospitalised for grevious injuries to their stomachs, kidneys and private parts, i.e., all below the belt, as it were. Do these commentators  think it's okay to give them mob justice because they are minority students (most of them were Hindu, btw) or the 'anarya,' to whom upper caste rules of conduct towards adversaries don't apply ??

Do these good Brahmins know that although it is Muslims who are targeted for disenfranchisement by the CAA, millions of poor, illiterate,  Hindus too will be cast into gulags called detention camps in the Northeast? Why do they overlook the fact that a majority of sane thinking Indians - those who have heads and sound cognitive faculties, that is - also oppose the NRC and CAA as being unconstitutional, a criminal conspiracy to disenfranchise millions of helpless citizens and non-Hindus. Even Hindus from upper class families will be unable to produce documents relating to place of origin of their parents and grandparents! Is this the India you want? Is this the government you want to support, that works against the Indian constitution and colludes with rabid mobs or paramilitaries who kill Muslims, adivasis, dalits, and dissenters with impunity?

If the upper castes, particularly Brahmins, want to return to their erstwhile role as educators, intermediaries between humans and gods (read 'governments' in the present context), scientists, philosophers and policy makers, they must first study India's hoary traditions of logic, debate, valid cognition and Nyaya. After this process of re-education, they will  be able to critique their own false assumptions, blind spots, selective perception of what the government controlled media tell them and they may even appreciate what dissenters of all hues have been saying against the RSS-Golwalkar-VHP- Bajrangi Dali-BJP view of what India is.

Joya Roy

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 10:44 Gopalkrishnan iyer, <iyer_ga@yahoo.com<mailto:iyer_ga@yahoo.com>> wrote:
All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.

Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!

We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.

The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.

Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see  India pervading and dominating with today's minority!!

These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic!
On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>> wrote:


What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India
should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some
king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or
prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it
material whether our PM worships a red idol  or a black stone. What is
important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right
to make laws that are beneficial to India. I  believe that polygamy is
bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.
Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human
rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and
women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that
our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.
Just to set the records straight with respect  Joya Royji's email of
15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-
no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous
practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.
Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the
Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck
passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829.  This is one few good things
that the British did for us.
Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly
exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present
time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes
to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving
increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that
discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know
that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any
caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I
have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.
If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within
his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant
. Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste
is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car
( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his
caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments
who have held power since our independence.
I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.
Jai Hind
Anand Gangoli


On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com<mailto:anandgangoli22@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
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Re: [IAC#RG] Alternate views on minorities, population, etc.

I'm a woman, using my late husband's ID because I found it got all sorts of. interesting posts which my Yahoo accounts didn't get. I am not indiaresists, just someone who gets their posts. I believe in an inclusive, non-discriminatory, honest, non-violent and peaceful society and polity for India which our recent governments and the present one with indicted criminals in power and its wild, marauding, murderous Banar Senas cannot provide us with.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, 12:45 Yahoo, <truevalue_pandian@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Joya,

I am not sure whether you are Mr. or M/s. I didn't even opt or subscribe for your group. I am not elite enough to discuss a subject on which I have no control nor a stake. You call yourself India against Corruption and post your Majesty's pleasure without any result. What have you done on corruption in M.P.or Karnataka?

Kindly unsubscribe me from this mindless gibberish.

Regards.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 12:19, Prodipto Roy

<prodipto.r@gmail.com> wrote:

What was stupid, idiotic, etc about what I said? Calling people you disagree with nasty names doesn't prove anything but intellectual bankruptcy. Better to debate, point by point, in the great Indian tradition of pramana, anumana, purvapaksha, or logical analysis of the subject matter of valid cognition. There are rules of debate, of course, which you will have to learn from scratch as they seem to be totally absent in the current discussion on these topics among the Bhaktas. 

Calling decent, educated patriots "self-centred scoundrels", urban naxals, leftist (have read neither Marx nor Mao!), bent on 'dividing India' etc., doesn't prove anything but an intolerant and defensive mindset.

Joya Roy

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, 10:47 Yahoo, <truevalue_pandian@yahoo.com> wrote:

Someone unsubscribe me from this stupid, idiotic, self centered scoundrels. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:25, Prodipto Roy

<indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

Comments like this need no response but I need to clarify two things that misrepresent what I said. This happens when intellectual adversaries read and see completely different sets of data, be they news clips, social media videos, government pronouncements on recent events and first hand accounts of those events, or when they see the same data sets and get a completely different picture of what is really happening, according to.their habitual biases.

My bias is to listen to the accounts of the victims of mob riots not of the perpetrators or instigators such as those who want their party followers or mobs to shoot people who object to the NRC-CAA. My idea of India is certainly not that of the fascist, anti-minority, anti-dissent, anti-democratic mindset of the present leadership. If the CAA were relevant to concerns about infiltration anywhere outside the North-Eastern states, why are many legislative assemblies in India refusing to accept it in its present form? Telengana, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal, Kerala have all objected to these legislations. Are they all then composed of anti-national 'traitors' - 'gaddars' who should be summarily shot ?

My information on the injured girl students of Jamia who suffered serious injuries below their waists down to their private parts from police blows and prods comes from friends and relatives (non-Muslim, FYI) who are medicos/doctorates) who have seen their condition and heard their accounts of what happened. FYI, Jamia had many Hindu students who protested against the CAA alongside the Muslim students. But I also watched - as you must have - that video of the two Jamia girls preventing police from attacking their male co-student. You can see how police, or hired goons in police uniforms conveniently supplied to them, use their lathis as bayonets to poke flesh and pierce internal organs. In Jamia they blinded a.student. In JNU police beat up a blind student. Several Jamia girls needed surgery after the police attack. You would have seen the same videos and interviews. Is protest against bad government policies 'anti-national'? When students become docile like sheep a country is doomed.

Secondly, I can't 'spread hate' against Brahmins who were my forebears. But I can critique the actions and mind-sets of some of them. 700 years ago when my Brahmin ancestors moved into the part of Bengal called Sylhet, now in Bangladesh, my father's birthplace, they systematically dispossesed the original adivasis - Khasis, Garos and Jaintias - driving these tribes into the hilly regions to the North, now known as Meghalaya. Brahmin and Rajput families took over all the rich cultivable lands of North Bengal. I have seen the same thing happen in Bihar and Jharkhand. Except that since upper castes have much greater mobility, access to modern education and economic opportunities, the educated among them lose their dependence on revenues from ancestral lands. Their dominance in rural areas has since been taken over by the OBCs in these two states except where Bhumihars - 'those who grab land' - still hold sway. Either way, it is the original settlers, the adivasis and many of those that we call SCs, who have been dispossesed, emisserated, trampled upon, in Eastern India. From my observations in the field including in my paternal ancestral village in Sylhet, my maternal ancestral area of Chandernagore, and my reading of 19th century  ethnographies, histories, colonial despatches and District Gazetteers of these places I can see what people of 'my kind' have done to the original ST-SC populations who first occupied these lands. Isn't it laughable to contend that my criticism of my own community constitutes an attempt to 'spread hatred'  against a particular community ?! 

Joya Roy

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 18:05 Manohar Sharma, <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:

There are patently wrong statements made in Jaya Roy's write up
1.The killings in Delhi riots have had casualties on majority n minority communities equally (quote Rajdeep Sardesai)
2.The Jamia case still is under enquiry n full details are not out as yet.If they are ,then please put them up for public view. There are plenty of videos which indicate that they were not studemts at all but stone pelters brought in for the specified purpose.Studying in libarary with faces covered is rather odd,at least to me.But like I said,let the enquiry decide.
3.The CAA doesn't take anybody's citizenship.Mr Harish Salve has categorically negated all such rumours,agendas n lies on NDTV .The CAA is in SC n whether it's constitutional or not,they will take the call.Harish Salve thinks that CAA is constitutional n is the need to fullfill the promises made by our founding fathers
4.There is a narrative which is trying to portray Brahmins, upper castes etc in a planned manner which is replica of what Rajiv Malhotra decribes in his book 'Breaking India'.Looking at the manner these words are mentioned,there is clear motive of creating hatred against the majority community.This kind of flogging the dead horse has been going on in a systematic manner with a clear agenda since long. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER FORWARDED,OFFERED ANY KIND OF SOLUTIONS EXCEPT GENERATING HATRED WHICH IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT JUST CREATING FAULT LINES WHERE THEY DONT EXIST BUT EXPLOITING ALL THOSE WHERE SUCH FAULT LINES EXIST . Examples of foreign countries don't offer solutions.The Indian ground realities need to be checked n reported.I had earlier reported of lack of any discrimination during भंडारा in temples complexes in the village where I stay.I would like to add that a sample of ten villages who are involved in these three temples,must be considered a sure shot forward movement and not just wishy washy illusion.
Manohar Sharma


________________________________
From: indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net <indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net> on behalf of Prodipto Roy <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 2:12:32 PM
To: Gopalkrishnan iyer <iyer_ga@yahoo.com>; indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Brahminical views on minorities, population, current events, and governance

It's typical of the selective perceptions of upper castes that they ignore both the latest official data analyses on population growth and the hate crimes and violence including rape, lynchings and murder of minority community members such as happened recently in North East Delhi with full cooperation of the police (not under Delhi govt.but under the central Home Ministry).

They won't deign to see news videos or read about police attacking students in Jamia and JNU using their lathis not as sticks to  beat people with but as lethal bayonets. Thus they won't care to learn about how most of the girl students injured in the second round of police violence against Jamia protesters were hospitalised for grevious injuries to their stomachs, kidneys and private parts, i.e., all below the belt, as it were. Do these commentators  think it's okay to give them mob justice because they are minority students (most of them were Hindu, btw) or the 'anarya,' to whom upper caste rules of conduct towards adversaries don't apply ??

Do these good Brahmins know that although it is Muslims who are targeted for disenfranchisement by the CAA, millions of poor, illiterate,  Hindus too will be cast into gulags called detention camps in the Northeast? Why do they overlook the fact that a majority of sane thinking Indians - those who have heads and sound cognitive faculties, that is - also oppose the NRC and CAA as being unconstitutional, a criminal conspiracy to disenfranchise millions of helpless citizens and non-Hindus. Even Hindus from upper class families will be unable to produce documents relating to place of origin of their parents and grandparents! Is this the India you want? Is this the government you want to support, that works against the Indian constitution and colludes with rabid mobs or paramilitaries who kill Muslims, adivasis, dalits, and dissenters with impunity?

If the upper castes, particularly Brahmins, want to return to their erstwhile role as educators, intermediaries between humans and gods (read 'governments' in the present context), scientists, philosophers and policy makers, they must first study India's hoary traditions of logic, debate, valid cognition and Nyaya. After this process of re-education, they will  be able to critique their own false assumptions, blind spots, selective perception of what the government controlled media tell them and they may even appreciate what dissenters of all hues have been saying against the RSS-Golwalkar-VHP- Bajrangi Dali-BJP view of what India is.

Joya Roy

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 10:44 Gopalkrishnan iyer, <iyer_ga@yahoo.com<mailto:iyer_ga@yahoo.com>> wrote:
All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.

Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!

We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.

The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.

Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see  India pervading and dominating with today's minority!!

These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic!
On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>> wrote:


What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India
should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some
king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or
prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it
material whether our PM worships a red idol  or a black stone. What is
important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right
to make laws that are beneficial to India. I  believe that polygamy is
bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.
Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human
rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and
women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that
our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.
Just to set the records straight with respect  Joya Royji's email of
15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-
no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous
practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.
Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the
Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck
passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829.  This is one few good things
that the British did for us.
Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly
exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present
time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes
to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving
increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that
discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know
that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any
caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I
have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.
If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within
his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant
. Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste
is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car
( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his
caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments
who have held power since our independence.
I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.
Jai Hind
Anand Gangoli


On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com<mailto:anandgangoli22@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>"
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Re: [IAC#RG] Alternate views on minorities, population, current events, and governance

Comments like this need no response but I need to clarify two things that misrepresent what I said. This happens when intellectual adversaries read and see completely different sets of data, be they news clips, social media videos, government pronouncements on recent events and first hand accounts of those events, or when they see the same data sets and get a completely different picture of what is really happening, according to.their habitual biases.

My bias is to listen to the accounts of the victims of mob riots not of the perpetrators or instigators such as those who want their party followers or mobs to shoot people who object to the NRC-CAA. My idea of India is certainly not that of the fascist, anti-minority, anti-dissent, anti-democratic mindset of the present leadership. If the CAA were relevant to concerns about infiltration anywhere outside the North-Eastern states, why are many legislative assemblies in India refusing to accept it in its present form? Telengana, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal, Kerala have all objected to these legislations. Are they all then composed of anti-national 'traitors' - 'gaddars' who should be summarily shot ?

My information on the injured girl students of Jamia who suffered serious injuries below their waists down to their private parts from police blows and prods comes from friends and relatives (non-Muslim, FYI) who are medicos/doctorates) who have seen their condition and heard their accounts of what happened. FYI, Jamia had many Hindu students who protested against the CAA alongside the Muslim students. But I also watched - as you must have - that video of the two Jamia girls preventing police from attacking their male co-student. You can see how police, or hired goons in police uniforms conveniently supplied to them, use their lathis as bayonets to poke flesh and pierce internal organs. In Jamia they blinded a.student. In JNU police beat up a blind student. Several Jamia girls needed surgery after the police attack. You would have seen the same videos and interviews. Is protest against bad government policies 'anti-national'? When students become docile like sheep a country is doomed.

Secondly, I can't 'spread hate' against Brahmins who were my forebears. But I can critique the actions and mind-sets of some of them. 700 years ago when my Brahmin ancestors moved into the part of Bengal called Sylhet, now in Bangladesh, my father's birthplace, they systematically dispossesed the original adivasis - Khasis, Garos and Jaintias - driving these tribes into the hilly regions to the North, now known as Meghalaya. Brahmin and Rajput families took over all the rich cultivable lands of North Bengal. I have seen the same thing happen in Bihar and Jharkhand. Except that since upper castes have much greater mobility, access to modern education and economic opportunities, the educated among them lose their dependence on revenues from ancestral lands. Their dominance in rural areas has since been taken over by the OBCs in these two states except where Bhumihars - 'those who grab land' - still hold sway. Either way, it is the original settlers, the adivasis and many of those that we call SCs, who have been dispossesed, emisserated, trampled upon, in Eastern India. From my observations in the field including in my paternal ancestral village in Sylhet, my maternal ancestral area of Chandernagore, and my reading of 19th century  ethnographies, histories, colonial despatches and District Gazetteers of these places I can see what people of 'my kind' have done to the original ST-SC populations who first occupied these lands. Isn't it laughable to contend that my criticism of my own community constitutes an attempt to 'spread hatred'  against a particular community ?! 

Joya Roy

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 18:05 Manohar Sharma, <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:

There are patently wrong statements made in Jaya Roy's write up
1.The killings in Delhi riots have had casualties on majority n minority communities equally (quote Rajdeep Sardesai)
2.The Jamia case still is under enquiry n full details are not out as yet.If they are ,then please put them up for public view. There are plenty of videos which indicate that they were not studemts at all but stone pelters brought in for the specified purpose.Studying in libarary with faces covered is rather odd,at least to me.But like I said,let the enquiry decide.
3.The CAA doesn't take anybody's citizenship.Mr Harish Salve has categorically negated all such rumours,agendas n lies on NDTV .The CAA is in SC n whether it's constitutional or not,they will take the call.Harish Salve thinks that CAA is constitutional n is the need to fullfill the promises made by our founding fathers
4.There is a narrative which is trying to portray Brahmins, upper castes etc in a planned manner which is replica of what Rajiv Malhotra decribes in his book 'Breaking India'.Looking at the manner these words are mentioned,there is clear motive of creating hatred against the majority community.This kind of flogging the dead horse has been going on in a systematic manner with a clear agenda since long. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER FORWARDED,OFFERED ANY KIND OF SOLUTIONS EXCEPT GENERATING HATRED WHICH IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT JUST CREATING FAULT LINES WHERE THEY DONT EXIST BUT EXPLOITING ALL THOSE WHERE SUCH FAULT LINES EXIST . Examples of foreign countries don't offer solutions.The Indian ground realities need to be checked n reported.I had earlier reported of lack of any discrimination during भंडारा in temples complexes in the village where I stay.I would like to add that a sample of ten villages who are involved in these three temples,must be considered a sure shot forward movement and not just wishy washy illusion.
Manohar Sharma


________________________________
From: indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net <indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net> on behalf of Prodipto Roy <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 2:12:32 PM
To: Gopalkrishnan iyer <iyer_ga@yahoo.com>; indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Brahminical views on minorities, population, current events, and governance

It's typical of the selective perceptions of upper castes that they ignore both the latest official data analyses on population growth and the hate crimes and violence including rape, lynchings and murder of minority community members such as happened recently in North East Delhi with full cooperation of the police (not under Delhi govt.but under the central Home Ministry).

They won't deign to see news videos or read about police attacking students in Jamia and JNU using their lathis not as sticks to  beat people with but as lethal bayonets. Thus they won't care to learn about how most of the girl students injured in the second round of police violence against Jamia protesters were hospitalised for grevious injuries to their stomachs, kidneys and private parts, i.e., all below the belt, as it were. Do these commentators  think it's okay to give them mob justice because they are minority students (most of them were Hindu, btw) or the 'anarya,' to whom upper caste rules of conduct towards adversaries don't apply ??

Do these good Brahmins know that although it is Muslims who are targeted for disenfranchisement by the CAA, millions of poor, illiterate,  Hindus too will be cast into gulags called detention camps in the Northeast? Why do they overlook the fact that a majority of sane thinking Indians - those who have heads and sound cognitive faculties, that is - also oppose the NRC and CAA as being unconstitutional, a criminal conspiracy to disenfranchise millions of helpless citizens and non-Hindus. Even Hindus from upper class families will be unable to produce documents relating to place of origin of their parents and grandparents! Is this the India you want? Is this the government you want to support, that works against the Indian constitution and colludes with rabid mobs or paramilitaries who kill Muslims, adivasis, dalits, and dissenters with impunity?

If the upper castes, particularly Brahmins, want to return to their erstwhile role as educators, intermediaries between humans and gods (read 'governments' in the present context), scientists, philosophers and policy makers, they must first study India's hoary traditions of logic, debate, valid cognition and Nyaya. After this process of re-education, they will  be able to critique their own false assumptions, blind spots, selective perception of what the government controlled media tell them and they may even appreciate what dissenters of all hues have been saying against the RSS-Golwalkar-VHP- Bajrangi Dali-BJP view of what India is.

Joya Roy

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 10:44 Gopalkrishnan iyer, <iyer_ga@yahoo.com<mailto:iyer_ga@yahoo.com>> wrote:
All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.

Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!

We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.

The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.

Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see  India pervading and dominating with today's minority!!

These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic!
On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>> wrote:


What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India
should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some
king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or
prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it
material whether our PM worships a red idol  or a black stone. What is
important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right
to make laws that are beneficial to India. I  believe that polygamy is
bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.
Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human
rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and
women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that
our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.
Just to set the records straight with respect  Joya Royji's email of
15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-
no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous
practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.
Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the
Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck
passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829.  This is one few good things
that the British did for us.
Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly
exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present
time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes
to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving
increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that
discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know
that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any
caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I
have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.
If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within
his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant
. Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste
is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car
( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his
caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments
who have held power since our independence.
I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.
Jai Hind
Anand Gangoli


On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com<mailto:anandgangoli22@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>"
Exit: "indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net<mailto:indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net>"
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WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in

Re: [IAC#RG] READ THIS NOW - CORONA VIRUS

Well said Basuji.To the extent that Mr Sarabjit Roy advises all of us
to take prudent precautions to safe guard against the possible
repercussions of Corona Virus I agree with him. But when he goes to
the extent of recommending hoarding of food and essential supplies I
think he goes too far. He is creating panic, which is uncalled for and
counter productive at this stage.
He also suggests that we stock up on cash. At the same time he creates
a fear of demonetisation. Isn't there a contradiction?
I think all of us are duty bound to stop unnecessary panic.
Anand Gangoli







On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 10:43 AM Ranjan Basu
<indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>
> Why you are trying to spread panic in public. Pls stop your bakwas. Ans stay at home.
>
> On Wed 18 Mar, 2020, 9:48 PM Sarbajit Roy, <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dear IAC members
>>
>> https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf
>>
>> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/india-poor-testing-rate-masked-coronavirus-cases-200318040314568.html
>>
>> Per my discussions today in corridors of power, this is likely to be a rerun of DEMONETISATION. Expect announcements from Friday evening onwards.
>>
>> Better to be safe than sorry.
>>
>> 1) Stock up on food and other essentials for 1 month
>>
>> 2) Stock up on cash, ATMs may go dry and banks may stop working.
>>
>> 3) Do not depend on digital systems, payment and internet. Today 1 major Telecom player seems likely to shut down due to stock market collapse and adverse SC judgment (or may sell discreetly to the Only Vimal group). Another mobile company in Delhi has shut down 80% of its towers in last 7 days, fired 50% staff and cant even pay electricity bills.
>>
>> 4) Hospitals are likely to fill quickly. In Delhi Kejriwal is likely to direct private hospitals to give free treatment in ICU, which is going to amplify the problem by 10 times.
>>
>> Please do not circulate this message or forward it to non-members. It is only for our members.
>>
>> Very important links in case you missed it
>>
>> https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf
>>
>> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/india-poor-testing-rate-masked-coronavirus-cases-200318040314568.html
>> Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net"
>> Exit: "indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net"
>> Quit: "https://lists.riseup.net/www/signoff/indiaresists"
>> Help: https://help.riseup.net/en/list-user
>> WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in
>
> Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net"
> Exit: "indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net"
> Quit: "https://lists.riseup.net/www/signoff/indiaresists"
> Help: https://help.riseup.net/en/list-user
> WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in

Re: [IAC#RG] NOW RANJAN GOGOI IS ANOTHER P.SATHASIVAM

We are all witness to autocracy and mobocracy, peaking at the peril of the Nation. We also witness to our own inability to mobilize an influential intelligentsia. We are all witness to the Legislators becoming the Executives making the President, Governors, Secretaries and Collectors redundant or at best puppets in the hands of the Legislators. We also witness to the Judiciary toeing the line of the Legislators. In a nutshell, it is not quite far for the autocracy to turn into Monarchy of different form.

Unless electoral reform is brought out there is absolutely no scope for democracy in its true spirit.

Regards RN RADHAKRISHNAN

Re: [IAC#RG] MR. MODI SHOULD BAN POLYGAMY TO PROTECT WOMEN’S DIGNITY AND CURB POPULATION GROWTH

What Malhotraji has said about population may be very true. Bur
Polygamy still remains a shameful practice.
Anand Gangoli


On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 11:12 PM ravindra malhotra
<rnmalhotra_in@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Statements are made by people about 'majority population' and 'minority population' based on unqualified election speeches of politicians, without themselves analysing the actual census figures of Govt of India. Before making such statements, it is advisable to study the census figures of 1991, 2001 and 2011, which are also given religion wise for each state. For quick reference, 'Indian state-wise religious population rate of growth' can be googled, which will throw up a number of articles on the subject by experts, based on the analysis of census figures. The conclusions drawn roughly are that -
>
> Population growth is not dependent on religion. It is depending on the social and economic level of the people.
> Rate of growth of Minorities is slightly higher but the gap with rate of growth of majority religion is reducing.
> Rate of growth of population is much higher in Hindi Heartland i.e. UP, Bihar etc as compared to southern states. In fact rate of growth of Hindu population in these areas is more than that of Muslim population in some of the Southern states.
> In the worst scenario, when the rate of growth of Muslim population peaks, every 4 of 5 persons will still be Hindus.
>
> R.N.Malhotra
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 18, 2020, 02:43:15 PM GMT+5:30, Gopalkrishnan iyer <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
> All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.
>
> Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!
>
> We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.
>
> The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.
>
> Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see India pervading and dominating with today's minority!!
>
> These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic!
> On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
> What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India
> should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some
> king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or
> prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it
> material whether our PM worships a red idol or a black stone. What is
> important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right
> to make laws that are beneficial to India. I believe that polygamy is
> bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.
> Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human
> rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and
> women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that
> our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.
> Just to set the records straight with respect Joya Royji's email of
> 15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-
> no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous
> practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.
> Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the
> Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck
> passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829. This is one few good things
> that the British did for us.
> Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly
> exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present
> time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes
> to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving
> increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that
> discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know
> that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any
> caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I
> have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.
> If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within
> his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant
> . Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste
> is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car
> ( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his
> caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments
> who have held power since our independence.
> I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.
> Jai Hind
> Anand Gangoli
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net"
> Exit: "indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net"
> Quit: "https://lists.riseup.net/www/signoff/indiaresists"
> Help: https://help.riseup.net/en/list-user
> WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in
> Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net"
> Exit: "indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net"
> Quit: "https://lists.riseup.net/www/signoff/indiaresists"
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Re: [IAC#RG] READ THIS NOW - CORONA VIRUS

Why you are trying to spread panic in public.  Pls stop your bakwas. Ans stay at home.

On Wed 18 Mar, 2020, 9:48 PM Sarbajit Roy, <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

Dear IAC members

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/india-poor-testing-rate-masked-coronavirus-cases-200318040314568.html

Per my discussions today in corridors of power, this is likely to be a rerun of DEMONETISATION. Expect announcements from Friday evening onwards.

Better to be safe than sorry.

1) Stock up on food and other essentials for 1 month

2) Stock up on cash, ATMs may go dry and banks may stop working.

3) Do not depend on digital systems, payment and internet. Today 1 major Telecom player seems likely to shut down due to stock market collapse and adverse SC judgment (or may sell discreetly to the Only Vimal group). Another mobile company in Delhi has shut down 80% of its towers in last 7 days, fired 50% staff and cant even pay electricity bills.

4) Hospitals are likely to fill quickly. In Delhi Kejriwal is likely to direct private hospitals to give free treatment in ICU, which is going to amplify the problem by 10 times.

Please do not circulate this message or forward it to non-members. It is only for our members.

Very important links in case you missed it

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/india-poor-testing-rate-masked-coronavirus-cases-200318040314568.html

Post: "indiaresists@lists.riseup.net"
Exit: "indiaresists-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net"
Quit: "https://lists.riseup.net/www/signoff/indiaresists"
Help: https://help.riseup.net/en/list-user
WWW : http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in

Re: [IAC#RG] MR. MODI SHOULD BAN POLYGAMY TO PROTECT WOMEN’S DIGNITY AND CURB POPULATION GROWTH

Statements are made by people about 'majority population' and 'minority population' based on unqualified election speeches of politicians, without themselves analysing the actual census figures of Govt of India. Before making such statements, it is advisable to study the census figures of 1991, 2001 and 2011, which are also given religion wise for each state. For quick reference, 'Indian state-wise religious population rate of growth' can be googled, which will throw up a number of articles on the subject by experts, based on the analysis of census figures. The conclusions drawn roughly are that -

Population growth is not dependent on religion. It is depending on the social and economic level of the people.

Rate of growth of Minorities is slightly higher but the gap  with rate of growth of majority religion is reducing.

Rate of growth of population is much higher in Hindi Heartland i.e. UP, Bihar etc as compared to southern states. In fact rate of growth of Hindu population in these areas is more than that of Muslim population in some of the Southern states.

In the worst scenario, when the rate of growth of Muslim population peaks, every 4 of 5 persons will still be Hindus.

R.N.Malhotra

On Wednesday, March 18, 2020, 02:43:15 PM GMT+5:30, Gopalkrishnan iyer <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.

Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!

We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.

The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.

Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see  India pervading and dominating with today's minority!! 

These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic! 

On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India

should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some

king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or

prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it

material whether our PM worships a red idol  or a black stone. What is

important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right

to make laws that are beneficial to India. I  believe that polygamy is

bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.

Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human

rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and

women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that

our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.

Just to set the records straight with respect  Joya Royji's email of

15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-

no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous

practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.

Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the

Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck

passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829.  This is one few good things

that the British did for us.

Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly

exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present

time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes

to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving

increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that

discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know

that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any

caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I

have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.

If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within

his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant

. Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste

is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car

( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his

caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments

who have held power since our independence.

I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.

Jai Hind

Anand Gangoli

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com> wrote:

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Re: [IAC#RG] Brahminical views on minorities, population, current events, and governance

Rina Mukherjee could have also added the caste status of the highest rung of the present  government, the President of India. But then, she would have had to recall what President Narayanan in his last address said about the real situation of SCs and STs in India. 

I know the current oppressors of dalits are mainly OBCs. This is because the OBCs are 'the masses' of India, the numerical majority, now raising their Shudra status by acquisition and control of land, regional politics, and since the 1990s, by supporting the Hindutva cause to prove themselves. But can we ignore the subtle and gross insults SC/STs face daily even in the elite educational institutions they study or work in including IITs, AIIMS, other high level technical institutes that lead many to suicide. Remember Rohit Vemula in Hyderabad and the young ttribal woman doctor in Mumbai? This kind of pervasive discrimination could never happen in an truly egalitarian society. I submit that we - who find ourselves higher up in the traditional caste ranking - cannot possibly appreciate the situation children of dalits (who are also first time literates in their families) face from primary school to university.

And please remember that the first Schedules of castes including SC/ST/PTGs were formulated by the British, not some enlightened Indians of the time. B. R. Ambedkar was castigated for his views on villages being "dens of iniquity" due to the stranglehold of caste, by the Brahmin majority in the Constituent Assembly that worked on the Constitution. Please read the CA debates of that time. 

Let's not fall prey to complacency about India's persisting caste problem just because the socio-economic disabilities often including extreme poverty afflicting the lives of dalits don't resonate with us - would you, for example, ever want your children to choose manual scavenging as a livelihood because that was the only job available to them that did not have lakhs of candidates to compete with? 

Other highly hierarchical cultures have eradicated the problem of their unclean castes - in Japan, for instance - by erasing names denoting parents' place of residence which infallibly connoted caste status. Yet despite equal opportunities in education and upward economic mobility gained by the Eta and Buraku low castes, deep biases persist in high class Samurai families in terms  of who their daughters may unwittingly choose to marry.

Joya Roy

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020, 17:35 Rina Mukherji, <rina.mukherji@gmail.com> wrote:

It is a flawed reading of the CAA that has people talking of it as unconstitutional, and against to our constitutional Right to Equality. The CAA is only a humane Act that has been necessitated by the anti-minority policy of our Islamic 

.neighbour, Pakistan, and fundamentalist groups in Afghanistan and Bangladesh that have forcibly driven minorities across the border into India. High time this is acknowledged.

As for flouting the Right to Equality, haven't we practised positive discrimination in favour of the scheduled castes and tribes ever since independence? 

In fact, if these anti-CAA protesters were so concerned about human rights, they would welcome CAA, and not raise the spectre of discrimination that they are crying out loud about. 

Where casteism is concerned, Ms Joya Roy should so some ground-level research about the way it is practised in certain regions plagued by it ( particularly in the south and parts of north India). Flogging a dead horse in the name of Brahminism wont do. The truth is, it is not the Brahmins, but the intermediary castes who inflict the atrocities on the SCs.  

The governments ruling India have indeed been upfront at tackling untouchability and been extremely fair. That is the reason we have seen CMs like Mayawati ( an erstwhile Inspector of Schools) and leaders like Jignesh Mewani ( a qualified legal professional, the son of a banker) emerge. Doesn't it say a lot about the vertical mobility in India for SCs/Dalits?

Dr Rina Mukherji

Pune/Kolkata

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 2:44 PM Prodipto Roy <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

It's typical of the selective perceptions of upper castes that they ignore both the latest official data analyses on population growth and the hate crimes and violence including rape, lynchings and murder of minority community members such as happened recently in North East Delhi with full cooperation of the police (not under Delhi govt.but under the central Home Ministry). 

They won't deign to see news videos or read about police attacking students in Jamia and JNU using their lathis not as sticks to  beat people with but as lethal bayonets. Thus they won't care to learn about how most of the girl students injured in the second round of police violence against Jamia protesters were hospitalised for grevious injuries to their stomachs, kidneys and private parts, i.e., all below the belt, as it were. Do these commentators  think it's okay to give them mob justice because they are minority students (most of them were Hindu, btw) or the 'anarya,' to whom upper caste rules of conduct towards adversaries don't apply ?? 

Do these good Brahmins know that although it is Muslims who are targeted for disenfranchisement by the CAA, millions of poor, illiterate,  Hindus too will be cast into gulags called detention camps in the Northeast? Why do they overlook the fact that a majority of sane thinking Indians - those who have heads and sound cognitive faculties, that is - also oppose the NRC and CAA as being unconstitutional, a criminal conspiracy to disenfranchise millions of helpless citizens and non-Hindus. Even Hindus from upper class families will be unable to produce documents relating to place of origin of their parents and grandparents! Is this the India you want? Is this the government you want to support, that works against the Indian constitution and colludes with rabid mobs or paramilitaries who kill Muslims, adivasis, dalits, and dissenters with impunity?

If the upper castes, particularly Brahmins, want to return to their erstwhile role as educators, intermediaries between humans and gods (read 'governments' in the present context), scientists, philosophers and policy makers, they must first study India's hoary traditions of logic, debate, valid cognition and Nyaya. After this process of re-education, they will  be able to critique their own false assumptions, blind spots, selective perception of what the government controlled media tell them and they may even appreciate what dissenters of all hues have been saying against the RSS-Golwalkar-VHP- Bajrangi Dali-BJP view of what India is.

Joya Roy

On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 10:44 Gopalkrishnan iyer, <iyer_ga@yahoo.com> wrote:

All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.

Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!

We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.

The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.

Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see  India pervading and dominating with today's minority!! 

These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic! 

On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India

should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some

king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or

prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it

material whether our PM worships a red idol  or a black stone. What is

important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right

to make laws that are beneficial to India. I  believe that polygamy is

bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.

Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human

rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and

women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that

our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.

Just to set the records straight with respect  Joya Royji's email of

15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-

no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous

practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.

Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the

Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck

passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829.  This is one few good things

that the British did for us.

Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly

exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present

time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes

to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving

increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that

discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know

that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any

caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I

have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.

If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within

his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant

. Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste

is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car

( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his

caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments

who have held power since our independence.

I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.

Jai Hind

Anand Gangoli

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com> wrote:

>

>

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