[HumJanenge] Re: Rules for Improving India using the Right to Information laws

Dear Sandeep

1) There is (smile) a difference between "locus" and "focus"

2) You have not read the 2nd para of point 10 in the full bench
decision carefully.
The reasoning of the bench is dubious, and no direction to publish the
information
u/s 4 has been given (which power to direct the CIC does not possess
in any case)

Sarbajit

On Oct 9, 7:26 pm, sandeep kumar <drsandgu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> related to pension scam, my focus is only to stop drainage of public funds.
> related to section 4, please refer the enclosed decision of the CIC.
>
> On 10/9/11, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Sandeep
>
> > (NB: Despite what MKG has written, my attitude towards your work is very
> > positive)
>
> > 1)  Re: Pension scam, I cannot see what your locus in the matter is..
>
> > 2)  Re: IT. once again I cant see your locus. The DoPT circular for RTI
> > Cells does not cover internal transfers between PIOs of the same PA.  If you
> > carefully read 5(1) along with 6(1) it is clear that applicant must request
> > information from "THE" CPIO designated for the "administrative unit" of the
> > concerned PA. Regarding the point about proactive disclosure u/s 4, do you
> > read this from "concessions and subsidies" or "adminstrative decisions ...
> > to affected persons". ??
>
> > Sarbajit
>
> > On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:01 PM, sandeep kumar <drsandgu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> For the time being, the pensions to the illegal beneficiaries are
> >> stopped. The High court has ordered rescrutinization of all the
> >> beneficiaries (the deadline of june 30 was fixed for this). The
> >> government has been ordered to finalize appropriate action to be taken
> >> against the illegal beneficiaries.
> >> Till date, the pension disbursed to illegal beneficiaries has not been
> >> taken back and the scrutinization has not been completed in all the
> >> districts.
> >> The contempt of court petition has been filed and is likely to be taken up
> >> soon.
>
> >> regarding income tax RTI, is the information not proactive one and was
> >> required to be published online? The DOPT circular (who are referring)
> >> is related to other public authority and not the other PIO of same
> >> public authority. The other PIO in the same department (income tax in
> >> this case) is not another public authority in my opinion. One DOPT
> >> circular also mandates publishing of information under section 4. A
> >> PIO or PA cannot selectively choose to follow one direction and not
> >> other as per his or her convenience. The action of PIO is violative of
> >> the enclosed DOPT circular and even the DOPT circular (which you are
> >> referring) is violative of RTI act as it violates general clauses act.
>
> >> On 10/9/11, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Dear Sandeep
>
> >> > 1) About the pension scam. What is the judgment / order of the High
> >> > Court
> >> ?
>
> >> > 2) About the Income Tax RTI, the reply of the CPIO is perfect and
> >> > exactly
> >> in
> >> > line with the DoPT circular ("concerned public authority") and numerous
> >> > decisions of the CIC (except Mr Shailesh Gandhi's)
>
> >> > Sarbajit
>
> >> > On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 3:02 PM, sandeep kumar <drsandgu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> In my case, i got the information, scrutinized it, filed complaint
> >> >> with the PA to stop the illegal pensions, then filed RTI to find
> >> >> action taken. as no action was taken, filed a writ in the high court.
> >> >> I do not understand what are inconvenient questions. if the
> >> >> information is there it is either to be published under section 4 or
> >> >> be provided by demand.
> >> >> how can we be able to not give any chance to the PIO to deny
> >> >> informatoin using exemption clause or trick.
> >> >> Please find attached an RTI filed by me and the reply from a PIO.
> >> >> Please suggest what to do and how will the above methodology help.
> >> >> though information was part of section 4(1)(b) and not published, the
> >> >> PIO has not supplied it.
>
> >> >> On 10/9/11, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Yes, you and Manoj Kamra etc are starting to understand the process.
>
> >> >> > RTI is NOT a process to get information (which you can hardly do
> >> >> > anything
> >> >> > with anyway), but to ASK inconvenient questions which the PA cannot
> >> >> answer
> >> >> > (and which we dont want him to answer).
>
> >> >> > To do this successfully, we must
>
> >> >> > A) use the PA's own information and processes against them, and get
> >> them
> >> >> to
> >> >> > start passing the buck to each other and widening the circle..
>
> >> >> > B) Pose absolutely perfect questions (in the garb of seeking
> >> >> > information)
>
> >> >> > C) Give no chance for the PIO to deny information using any exemption
> >> /
> >> >> > trick available to him under the RTI Act and Rules.
>
> >> >> > D) Use the PIOs reply (which you must understand carefully for what
> >> >> > it
> >> >> does
> >> >> > NOT say) to your best advantage.
>
> >> >> > By this means we are MISUSING RTI Act (since we dont actually need
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > information) but are simply posing inconvenient questions and keeping
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > flame burning. This strategy works on the assumption that there are
> >> >> enough
> >> >> > HONEST "babus" who knoiw how to use your RTI to save themselves
> >> >> > within
> >> >> their
> >> >> > own rules and regulations..
>
> >> >> > Sarbajit
>
> >> >> > On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Abhimanyu
> >> >> > <who.will.file....@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> >> >> Sarbajit.
> >> >> >> in most of the cases they do not give us information but they stop
> >> the
> >> >> >> corruption in that perticular case within 3 days ...repeat ...
> >> >> >> within
> >> >> only
> >> >> >> 3
> >> >> >> days
>
> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >>> YOU (???) stopped this pension scam. It is not YOUR place to stop
> >> it.
> >> >> It
> >> >> >>> is the job of the Govt (incl. its own agencies) to monitor itself
> >> >> >>> to
> >> >> see
> >> >> >>> that such scams do not occur / continue.
>
> >> >> >>> Let me assume for a moment that you are an "RTI activist". How did
> >> you
> >> >> >>> USE
> >> >> >>> RTI to stop this scam. (Or did you "mis"use RTI to stop this scam
> >> ?).
> >> >> Did
> >> >> >>> you get information and what did you do with it ?
>
> >> >> >>> Sarbajit
>
> >> >> >>> On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 8:56 AM, sandeep kumar
> >> >> >>> <drsandgu...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> >> >>>> Sir,
> >> >> >>>> By using RTI, I have been able to stop illegal old age pensions
> >> >> >>>> (being
> >> >> >>>> given to dead) to about 1 lakh beneficiaries. A lot of people may
> >> be
> >> >> >>>> misusing RTI but a still larger number is using RTI for good
> >> >> >>>> cause.
>
> >> >> >>>> On 10/9/11, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>>> > RULE # 1:
>
> >> >> >>>> > *RTI Act is not to be used, it is to be "mis"used.*
>
> >> >> >>>> > This simple rule must be strictly followed if one is to achieve
> >> >> >>>> anything
> >> >> >>>> > useful using RTI.
>
> >> >> >>>> > Whenever you ask an "RTI activist" why they file RTIs and what
> >> they
> >> >> >>>> will do
> >> >> >>>> > with the info (if they ever get it), the usual reply they give
> >> you
> >> >> is
> >> >> >>>> > because the Govt "babus" are completely corrupt they will a)
> >> expose
> >> >> >>>> this
> >> >> >>>> > information in the media b) file a PIL. Both these strategies
> >> >> >>>> > are
> >> >> >>>> > so
> >> >> >>>> hollow
> >> >> >>>> > that it is no wonder that nothing substantial ever gets
> >> >> >>>> > achieved.The
> >> >> >>>> real
> >> >> >>>> > ways for an average citizen to use RTI to make a difference are
> >> >> >>>> > counter-intuitive and firmly grounded in Rule # 1 as stated
> >> above.
>
> >> >> >>>> --
> >> >> >>>> Dr. Sandeep Kumar Gupta
> >> >> >>>> 989, Sector 15-A, Opposite bishnoi Colony, Hisar-125001, INDIA
> >> >> >>>> Phone: 91-99929-31181
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Dr. Sandeep Kumar Gupta
> >> >> 989, Sector 15-A, Opposite bishnoi Colony, Hisar-125001, INDIA
> >> >> Phone: 91-99929-31181
>
> >> --
> >> Dr. Sandeep Kumar Gupta
> >> 989, Sector 15-A, Opposite bishnoi Colony, Hisar-125001, INDIA
> >> Phone: 91-99929-31181
>
> --
> Dr. Sandeep Kumar Gupta
> 989, Sector 15-A, Opposite bishnoi Colony, Hisar-125001, INDIA
> Phone: 91-99929-31181
>
>  CIC_LS_A_2009_00190.pdf
> 69KViewDownload