Re: [HumJanenge] Re: Cabinet note not secret: Info panel

Dear Surendera

1) Please avoid using colours to make / emphasise your case (and especially since the Law is color blind)

2) Dr Sandeep Gupta's email does not support your case at all, referring as it does to some vague "decision to appeal" to compute the start of the 90 days to appeal to CIC.

3) Let us now dissect your fallacious arguments

a) Admittedly by section 19(3) the "2nd" appeal to CIC must be filed within 90 days of the date the decision under section 19(1) was received or ought to have been made.

b) The decisions under.19(1) are listed in that section to be one of the follwing

i)  A decision of CPIO received in time but which aggrieves the applicant,

ii) A decision, if any, of CPIO not received within the time specified in sub-section (1) or clause (a) of sub-section (3) of section 7

There is no other decsion which can be appealed to CIC. It is also a neccessary condition that the appellant should have previously filed a First Appeal to the decsion under 19(1).

c) 19(4) also makes it amply clear that it is thw decision of the CPIO which is being appealed against to the CIC

d)  19(6) does not require the FAA to take any decision, he only has to "dispose" of it. The Act is also replete with references to decisions of the CPIO with noit even a single reference to any decisions of the FAA

Therefore my dear Surendera, please brush up your English and read the Law in its letter before attempting to read it in spirit.

Sarbajit

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Surendera M. Bhanot <surendera@avissoftware.com> wrote:

Dear Sarabjit

I always considered to you in good esteem. But by writing about my English and  your so called interpretation of the Section 19(3) of the RTI Act 2005, I have now a different view.

 

section 19(3) which is reproduced below"

Section 19(3) - A second appeal against the decision under sub-section (1) shall lie within ninety days from the date on which the decision should have been made or was actually received, with the Central Information Commission or the State Information Commission.....

 

Let us incise /dichotomize it part by part:  

 

 

PART-1 OF SECTION 19(3)

"A second appeal against the decision under sub-section (1)"

 

Now the Section 19(1) deals with the First Appeal which is to made to First Appellate Authority (FAA) and  says: Any person who, does not receive a decision within the time specified in sub-section (1) or clause (a) of sub-section (3) of section 7, or is aggrieved by a decision of the Central Public Information Officer or State Public Information Officer, as the case may be, may within thirty days from the expiry of such period or from the receipt of such a decision prefer an appeal to such officer who is senior in rank to the Central Public Information Officer or State Public Information Officer as the case may be, in each public authority:

 

PART-2 OF SECTION 19(3)

"shall lie within ninety days from the date on which the decision should have been made or was actually received"

 

Now in part 1 appeal was made to FAA. So the second appeal under section 19(3) would lie against the decision taken by the first appellate Authority (who is a officer senior in rank to CPIO/SPIO) and time limit is "within ninety days from the date on which (FAA's) the decision should have been made or was actually received"

 

So you can file a second appeal after the expiry of 30 days from the date of receipt of your Fist Appeal by the Appellate Authority whether he has delivered the decision or not and you have 90 days from this date to do so.

 

PART-3 OF SECTION 19(3)

"with the Central Information Commission or the State Information Commission..... "

 

This second appeal will lie with the Central Information Commission or the State Information Commission.

 

It seems that you are not only poor at English your math is also so poorly lack in common sense. Going by the above I pity on you.

Moreover Dr. Sandeep Gupta has also endorsed the correct position as in law and by that my position.

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Surendra,

It seems that you cannot read English (language of RTI Act's official version).
The decision referred to in 19(3) is the decision of the CPIO upon the RTI request.

The new calculations of 30 + 30 you are proposing is completely bizarre.

Sarbajit

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Surendera M. Bhanot <surendera@avissoftware.com> wrote:

First I must correct you on the limitation to file second appeal as per Section 19(3), which says:

Section 19(3) - A second appeal against the decision under sub-section (1) shall lie within ninety days from the date on which the decision should have been made or was actually received, with the Central Information Commission or the State Information Commission.....

On the contrary to what made out by Sarbjit, one can file the first Appeal after 30 days from the date of  receipt of the RTI application by PIO and the second appeal  after 30 days from the date of  receipt of the First Appeal by FAA, without waiting for the reply of the PIO or FAA. 

Secondly, There is a difference between complaint and appeal. Complaint can be filed any time (without any limitations) as soon as a cause of action arises. This is not the discretion of the CIC/SIC to entertain the complaint on its discretion. Section 18. (1) says that it shall (emphasis on shall) be the duty of the Central Information Commission or State Information Commission, as the case may be, to receive and inquire into a complaint from any person.

So I advise every body not to fear while filing the appeal. You can do it any time you like independent of the appealing process. Since Sarabjit is adamant not to yield to a rightful right of aa applicant, he is throwing arguments, may be to enlarge the scope of this discussion. He is welcome.

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Surendra

The practical definition of "expert" is anyone who knows a LITTLE more than the AVERAGE IDIOT.

I am glad that you agree with me that Complaints are discretionary.

I disagree with you that the Complaint must be "well drafted" to achieve results. What is more important is that the Complainant must know and confine himself to the specific grounds under which a Complaint must be filed, and approach the Commission without laches (delay). Thereafter the Complainant is left to the vagaries of the Commissions and their individual styles of functioning.

Your calculation of time allowed to file a 2nd appeal (90 days after FA gives decision) is completely off the mark. As per me the prospective appellant must file his 2nd appeal within 90 days of the date the CPIO gives his decision (or should have given his decision). [19(1) r/w 19(3)]

Sarbajit

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 4:13 PM, Surendera M. Bhanot <surendera@avissoftware.com> wrote:

The experts find a way from the narrow band too. So the matter that Complaints is discretionary is no longer a myth. If one cannot file a proper complaint, he cannot expect the desired results. The CIC/SIC has to inquire into on receipt of a well drafted complaint. The calculations of days are broadly correct and a knowledgable person will reckon the exact days, when required. Act does not specify any time limit for filing the complaint. However, courts had decided that the CIC/SIC has to decide the same as expeditiously as possible.

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 3:48 PM, sarbajit roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:

You have not calculated the dates / period for filing 2nd appeal
correctly
You have also not appreciated that complaint process is extremely
narrow
in scope and confined to a few technical grounds. Complaint process is
also a time-bound process for citizens to approach the CIC in..

Sarbajit

On May 7, 12:23 pm, "Surendera M. Bhanot" <surend...@avissoftware.com>
wrote:

> In fact there is difference between the "Appeal" and "Complaint".
>
> *Appeal - *you file it when you find that the process of law has been
> followed but the information has not been given. You file an appeal to get
> the information. you have to go through the process as per Section 19 of the
> Act.You have 30 days to file first appeal and 90 days thereafter (after the
> expiry of the 30 days of the first appeal) for second appeal. PIO has no
> right to appeal, but PA has.
>
> *Complaint - * You file it under Section 18 of the Act where the process of
> law has been abused in any manner. It is independent of Section 19. There is
> no time limit and complaint can be filed any time on any issue of
> infringement of law and your rights. Neither PIO nor PA can complain. Rather
> the onus of proof rest on the PIO.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:38 AM, sandeep kumar <drsandgu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > what i have done is that i filed complaint against the refusal of
> > information (as the pio did not give any grounds to refuse
> > information). after some days, I filed first appeal with AA. Now as
> > the first appeal has not been replied, i intend to filed second
> > appeal. can i do so?
> > I mean to ask as to whether commission can reject the complaint (for
> > filing it along with use of first appeal) or reject the appeal (for
> > filing a complaint and thus approaching the commission earlier also)
>

> > On 5/6/11, Sarbajit Roy <sroy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 1) If the RTI request has been duly received with the fee and there is
> > proof
> > > of this, we always advise our members to file first appeal before
> > (wrongly)
> > > approaching the SIC/CIC (in complaint jurisdiction) or (rightly) in 2nd
> > > appeal jurisdiction thereafter.
> > > The reason for this is that
> > > a) first Appeal is a statutory time-bound process, whereas
> > > b) Complaint is a discretionary and open-ended process.
> > > c) Second appeal is a statutory but open-ended process
>
> > > So the answer to your query no.1 is that it is NOT mandatory to approach
> > FAA
> > > prior to approaching SIC/CIC, ... BUT First Appeal is TECHNICALLY the
> > BEST
> > > option in terms of RISK MANAGEMENT.
>
> > > 2) Your 2nd query is badly framed and factually incorrect. The CIC CANNOT
> > > entertain a 2nd appeal when no  first apeal has been filed.
>
> > > Sarbajit
>

> > > On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Baritlum Ama <baritlum...@gmail.com>

> > wrote:
>
> > >> I NEED THE ANSWER FROM YOU ALL PLEASE.
>
> > >> 1) IS IT MANDATORY TO APPROACH THE APPELLATE AUTHORITY OR SENIOR IN
> > >> RANK TO THE CPIO OR SPIO PRIOR TO APPROACHING CIC OR SIC?
>
> > >> 2)AND IF THE CIC OR SIC ENTERTAINS THE APPELLANT BY BYPASSING THE
> > >> SENIOR OFFICER I.E 2ND APPELLATE AUTHORITY AS PER CLUASE-19(1),THEN IS
> > >> THE ACTION OF CIC OR SIC IN VIOLATION OF THE RTI ACT.
>
> > >> WHERE THE CLUASE WHEREIN THE CIC OR SIC OR APPELLANT DEFEND THEMSELVES.
>
> > >> Thanks
>
> > --
> > Dr. Sandeep Kumar Gupta
> > 989, Sector 15-A, Opposite bishnoi Colony, Hisar-125001, INDIA

> > Phone:91-99929-31181begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            91-99929-31181      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
>
> --
> *"Our biggest competition is never with the others.

> Instead, it is always within ourselves.
> It doesn't matter if where we end up - first or at last.
> If we do our best to do better than before, we've won"
> **
> Warm Regards**
>
> Surendera M. Bhanot*

> *- President, RTI Help <http://www.rtihelp.in> & Assistance Forum Chandigarh
>
> - Youth for Human Rights International YHRI <http://yhrisouthasia.ning.com/>-
> South Asia
> - CEO, Avis Software <http://www.avissoftware.com>, Chandigarh

> - Convener & Life Member, Consumers Association Chandigarh
> - Jt. Secretary, Amateur Judo Association of Chandigarh

> - Member, SPACE <http://www.thespace.org.in>- Society for Promotion and

> Conservation of Environment, Chandigarh
> - Member, RTI Activist Federation, Punjab, Chandigarh*
> *No. 3758, Sector 22-D, Chandigarh-160022

> Mob:+91-9888-810-811begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            +91-9888-810-811      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> PHONE:+91-172-2780838begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            +91-172-2780838      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> FAX: 0871 266 8523  ***
> Mail Me <surend...@avissoftware.com>
>
> *DISCLAIMER*: You have received this email because you any one time

> contacted me through mail or otherwise gave your mail-id. This e-mail is
> intended to be sent to the persons on my regular mail-list. In case you
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--

"Our biggest competition is never with the others.
Instead, it is always within ourselves.
It doesn't matter if where we end up - first or at last.
If we do our best to do better than before, we've won"

Warm Regards

Surendera M. Bhanot

- President, RTI Help & Assistance Forum Chandigarh
- Youth for Human Rights International YHRI - South Asia
- CEO, Avis Software, Chandigarh 

- Convener & Life Member, Consumers Association Chandigarh
- Jt. Secretary, Amateur Judo Association of Chandigarh

- Member, SPACE - Society for Promotion and Conservation of Environment, Chandigarh

- Member, RTI Activist Federation, Punjab, Chandigarh

No. 3758, Sector 22-D, Chandigarh-160022

Mob: +91-9888-810-811
PHONE: +91-172-2780838

FAX: 0871 266 8523 
Mail Me

DISCLAIMER: You have received this email because you any one time contacted me through mail or otherwise gave your mail-id. This e-mail is intended to be sent to the persons on my regular mail-list. In case you think this mail infringes your privacy or otherwise you do not want to receive this mail anymore, please reply with the word 'UNSUBSCRIBE" in the body of the mail. Please do not disturb the Subject line. I am sorry to see you go. But please mention the reason why you want to go. It will help me improve my services in future. Thanks

--
"Our biggest competition is never with the others.
Instead, it is always within ourselves.
It doesn't matter if where we end up - first or at last.
If we do our best to do better than before, we've won"

Warm Regards

Surendera M. Bhanot
- President, RTI Help & Assistance Forum Chandigarh
- Youth for Human Rights International YHRI - South Asia
- CEO, Avis Software, Chandigarh 
- Convener & Life Member, Consumers Association Chandigarh
- Jt. Secretary, Amateur Judo Association of Chandigarh
- Member, SPACE - Society for Promotion and Conservation of Environment, Chandigarh
- Member, RTI Activist Federation, Punjab, Chandigarh
No. 3758, Sector 22-D, Chandigarh-160022
Mob: +91-9888-810-811
PHONE: +91-172-2780838
FAX: 0871 266 8523 
Mail Me


DISCLAIMER: You have received this email because you any one time contacted me through mail or otherwise gave your mail-id. This e-mail is intended to be sent to the persons on my regular mail-list. In case you think this mail infringes your privacy or otherwise you do not want to receive this mail anymore, please reply with the word 'UNSUBSCRIBE" in the body of the mail. Please do not disturb the Subject line. I am sorry to see you go. But please mention the reason why you want to go. It will help me improve my services in future. Thanks

--
"Our biggest competition is never with the others.
Instead, it is always within ourselves.
It doesn't matter if where we end up - first or at last.
If we do our best to do better than before, we've won"

Warm Regards

Surendera M. Bhanot
- President, RTI Help & Assistance Forum Chandigarh
- Youth for Human Rights International YHRI - South Asia
- CEO, Avis Software, Chandigarh 
- Convener & Life Member, Consumers Association Chandigarh
- Jt. Secretary, Amateur Judo Association of Chandigarh
- Member, SPACE - Society for Promotion and Conservation of Environment, Chandigarh
- Member, RTI Activist Federation, Punjab, Chandigarh
No. 3758, Sector 22-D, Chandigarh-160022
Mob: +91-9888-810-811
PHONE: +91-172-2780838
FAX: 0871 266 8523 
Mail Me


DISCLAIMER: You have received this email because you any one time contacted me through mail or otherwise gave your mail-id. This e-mail is intended to be sent to the persons on my regular mail-list. In case you think this mail infringes your privacy or otherwise you do not want to receive this mail anymore, please reply with the word 'UNSUBSCRIBE" in the body of the mail. Please do not disturb the Subject line. I am sorry to see you go. But please mention the reason why you want to go. It will help me improve my services in future. Thanks