From: Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com>
To: indiaresists@lists.riseup.net
Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 22:31
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Definition of "Hindu"
See my detailed reply inline
I find an interesting comment that the government has taken over administration of Hindu shrines to safe guard interests of the devotees.
I find an interesting comment that the government has taken over administration of Hindu shrines to safe guard interests of the devotees.
This is an excuse to collect money from the temples for use by politicians in manner deemed fit.The money so collected does not seem to be used for benefit of Hindus so far.
If the government was really keen to look after the devotees it could have imposed certain checks to ensure that the collection is properly used for Hindu causes.
No such control has been imposed on any other religious places of worship
On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@gmail.com> wrote:
Why ? If Muslim Personal Law is better than Christian Personal Law then more Christian's will convert to Islam than the other way around. every religion is guaranteed the fundamental right to propagate itself and personal law is one of the components of that propagation process.
Your argument also ignores that there are already all the SECULAR Laws in place for every Indian who chooses to use it and opt out of personal law. Secular Laws like
a) Special Marriages Act
b) Guardians and Wards Act
c) Indian Succession Act etc
d) Code of Civil procedure
Laws cannot be the same for everyone till the Constitution is radically amended.
Its already there except for a few token things like Haj subsidy - which is balanced out by Mansarovar Yatra and administration of Hindu shrines by State to protect the interests of devotees against unscrupulous vested interests who were raiding the temple coffers like it is their private Bank.
The State MUST COMPLETELY interfere in marriage through Laws. The laws are not only for marriage but also for DIVORCE and protection of Child interests and Child welfare (which is paramount) and things like return of dowry and streedhan. An important component of these laws is forcing a woman who has abandoned the marriage to return to her husband for purposes of SEX (restitution of conjugal rights). The Law recognises that there are phases of ups and downs in every marriage and Sex is the medicine to keep the ship of marriage afloat through all the misunderstandings and interference from family and well wishers. The Muslim Personal Law is so advanced (being contractual in nature) that divorces can be carried out as a breach of contract under the ordinary Civil laws like Code of Civil Procedure.1908.,
It is not the job of the State to dictate the form and content of the marriage ceremonies. If the parties do not want to get married under their personal laws with all the priests and mumbo jumbos they can get married under Brahmo Samaj rites (I can carry out such ceremony for anyone interested) which can be over in 10 minutes and is perfectly valid in law. The essentials are that the parties declare in the presence of their families (both sides) that they freely take each other in the presence of their families and witnesses to be husband and wife, the same is recorded in writing and signed and parties properly identified laying emphasis on age (25 Yrs for males, 21 Yrs for women) and their unmarried status. Then with 3 Samskrit slokas being recited (no fire / havan / sil or anything like 'swaha' that which can be construed as representing a corporate God) the parties exchange rings and garlands and their hands are bound with garlands. The Brahmo marriage ceremony was incorporated into the Special marriages Act 1872 and 1955, so every eligible adult citizens (any religion) has a choice of either getting married in a dreary Registrar's office after giving 30 days notice) or getting a Brahmo acharya (like me) to do the same thing free of charge at no notice and get it registered later under the Special Marriages Act in an absolutely valid way (Special Marriage Act 1872 was based on the Brahmo Marriage Bill 1871). If Indira and Feroze could do so, so can any of you :-) This basic VEDIC ceremony is used by Arya Samaj and in Madras also with some minor variations (like fire, and thali etc) to suit local customs.
No such thing as Bisexual / Homosexual MARRIAGE.
Already covered above with one important caveat, If 2 parties get married under Brahmo rites but don't register their marriage, they cannot get divorced (and there is a whole body of case law on this) either under Special Marriage Act or Hindu Marriage Act. If marriage is reduced to a contract, then it will be ENFORCED in law as a contract which would greatly go against the Females as the parties would be dead by the time the final judgment emerges.
Sarbajit1. I support the Uniform Civil Code. Law must be the same for all.
Why ? If Muslim Personal Law is better than Christian Personal Law then more Christian's will convert to Islam than the other way around. every religion is guaranteed the fundamental right to propagate itself and personal law is one of the components of that propagation process.
Your argument also ignores that there are already all the SECULAR Laws in place for every Indian who chooses to use it and opt out of personal law. Secular Laws like
a) Special Marriages Act
b) Guardians and Wards Act
c) Indian Succession Act etc
d) Code of Civil procedure
Laws cannot be the same for everyone till the Constitution is radically amended.
2. There should be separation of religion and state and complete freedom to practice the religion of choice or invent new religions and this should not be the business of the state.
Its already there except for a few token things like Haj subsidy - which is balanced out by Mansarovar Yatra and administration of Hindu shrines by State to protect the interests of devotees against unscrupulous vested interests who were raiding the temple coffers like it is their private Bank.
3. Similarly, there should be separation of state and marriage. The state may record marriage, but beyond very basic rules (like "no kids" or "no domestic abuse or rape" or "if there is no specification in the marriage contract, an exclusive relationship will be assumed" etc - can be drafted by wise people) the state should stay out of the nature of the union.
The State MUST COMPLETELY interfere in marriage through Laws. The laws are not only for marriage but also for DIVORCE and protection of Child interests and Child welfare (which is paramount) and things like return of dowry and streedhan. An important component of these laws is forcing a woman who has abandoned the marriage to return to her husband for purposes of SEX (restitution of conjugal rights). The Law recognises that there are phases of ups and downs in every marriage and Sex is the medicine to keep the ship of marriage afloat through all the misunderstandings and interference from family and well wishers. The Muslim Personal Law is so advanced (being contractual in nature) that divorces can be carried out as a breach of contract under the ordinary Civil laws like Code of Civil Procedure.1908.,
Whether it is a normal one on one heterosexual marriage, homosexual, polgamy, polandry.... whatever. We should register marriages by marriage contracts which must state the terms of the marriage and the members of the union, which should be crafted by the participants in the marriage by mutual consent. Whether it is an exclusive relationship or a time limited marriage or includes a pre-nuptial contract or a bisexual marriage.... whatever it is.
It is not the job of the State to dictate the form and content of the marriage ceremonies. If the parties do not want to get married under their personal laws with all the priests and mumbo jumbos they can get married under Brahmo Samaj rites (I can carry out such ceremony for anyone interested) which can be over in 10 minutes and is perfectly valid in law. The essentials are that the parties declare in the presence of their families (both sides) that they freely take each other in the presence of their families and witnesses to be husband and wife, the same is recorded in writing and signed and parties properly identified laying emphasis on age (25 Yrs for males, 21 Yrs for women) and their unmarried status. Then with 3 Samskrit slokas being recited (no fire / havan / sil or anything like 'swaha' that which can be construed as representing a corporate God) the parties exchange rings and garlands and their hands are bound with garlands. The Brahmo marriage ceremony was incorporated into the Special marriages Act 1872 and 1955, so every eligible adult citizens (any religion) has a choice of either getting married in a dreary Registrar's office after giving 30 days notice) or getting a Brahmo acharya (like me) to do the same thing free of charge at no notice and get it registered later under the Special Marriages Act in an absolutely valid way (Special Marriage Act 1872 was based on the Brahmo Marriage Bill 1871). If Indira and Feroze could do so, so can any of you :-) This basic VEDIC ceremony is used by Arya Samaj and in Madras also with some minor variations (like fire, and thali etc) to suit local customs.
No such thing as Bisexual / Homosexual MARRIAGE.
It is hardly the business of the court or state who commits to share their lives with whom. There is no point having rights movements for each individual kind of marriage. I think we need to reboot all our laws around marriage to make them simple and freeing. Under such a system, a religious marriage may haveterms as per religion written into the contract - for example. Any religion. No need for separate laws. Write your contract, notarize it, register it. Done. Whatever it is. Will also make for a far more mature marriage and transparenc. For example, will a wife sign a contract that expects specific behaviors? Better than the current practice of nasty surprises later.
Already covered above with one important caveat, If 2 parties get married under Brahmo rites but don't register their marriage, they cannot get divorced (and there is a whole body of case law on this) either under Special Marriage Act or Hindu Marriage Act. If marriage is reduced to a contract, then it will be ENFORCED in law as a contract which would greatly go against the Females as the parties would be dead by the time the final judgment emerges.
Vidyut
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