Re: [HumJanenge] CORRUPTION - Understanding and Removing It.

I read many mails in this conversation. 

The main agenda here is the curbing the corruption and removing the corrupt people from the high level ( even below) 

I remembered that some time ago the SC commented to CBI, "Why are you after small case, can't you see big fish?" in case of watchman taken rs 100/- bribe. The case gone to SC!!!!

Now the time is come to catch the high flyer. 

The proposed bill covers all the high flyer, except PM, Chief Justice etc.. under debate now a days. 

But still there is some doubts : 

What is corruption? 

Not following the rules and regulation? In case some officer in the circumstances does not follows the rules and regulation .(the situation one can imagine any) will he be corrupt. i.g. one businessman says the poor stolen roti from his hotel, the police man did not arrest that poor man!!!

Will the saying one is corrupt, that will be comes under the ACT(proposed). When I say X is corrupt. At present the Sonia Gandhi is soft target (May be political reason) Will LKA be targeted for his name in Jain dairy? 

Next relevat Que in this regard, if one's name appears in other corrupt people, will that ONE be have to face the case under LOKPAL? Than every under world threatens the Police commissionaire, Home Minister that I keep one dairy in which your (PC, HM) name is appaering. If you dare to touch me , you also be finished. !!!!

Who decides that in whose case the LOKPAL is applicable. Just saying that X is corrupt, though he may be honest one, what action is there to punish the other one? 

Saying is very easy that cover even the PM, all citizens are covered and no one has the perfect account, just one can not able to  establish 100% true account, be punished? 

The other side must be watched. Other wise the real corrupt people will settle the honest one.

Will the present LOKPAL BILL have sufficient safeguards of being mis-used? 

regards.

r r makwana

On 19 June 2011 23:12, devinder chopra <ddchop47@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends All on this Forum:

 I am possibly sharing my opinion for the first time on this forum,
yet have been orienting myself on the pushes and pulls under way
between the different, but concerned and passionate individuals. For
their sharing and more, I am grateful. But now say my bit...

Sudhakaran ji has inspired and motivated me to say my brief piece.

Corruption is only a part of the erosion of character we exhibit as a
people and a nation. Something more basic is lacking and is NOT
restricted only to the politician -- though they by and large, are
possibly, some of the worst in "making a buck" under any
circumstances.

Our character has eroded to a point where generally, we assume by
saying "Sorry Sir and please..." we have done our bit and resume
activities and life and repeat the same kind of act, the next day or
week and end with "Sorry" and carry on. That is how bad it has become.
I suspect 8 or 9 out of 10 are that way today among us Indians.
The younger ones, learn from the older ones, and thus the erosion that
I refer to is seen as "being clever and smart and get by" smoothly and
glibly....

A premier seems to demonstrate as if he is running a gurdwara not a
Govt of over a Billion people!
He must learn from Sridharan ji of the Delhi Metro of what decision
making and leadership is and how it is demonstrated. You cann ot be a
Premier and not supervise how the Foreign Minister managing things and
events...and the same applies to the rest of his Ministry or the
PMO...!

Matters and events have gone beyond the politicians; most of us tend
to indulge in 'a sleight of hand' to what have you. That is called
clever and smart.
The gentle and the honest one is called a "buddhu" and a "soft one"
and will not go far in life -- in a job, or with a woman or moving up
in one's career.

Good character and honesty of purpose gets appreciated -- I do not
deny that and it does get rewarded. BUT our corrupted character and
"being clever" has left us as a highly "chalak" and a corrupt nation,
among whom possibly the politicians are the worst element since they
run the roost and get away -- by buying the votes, suppressing the
havaldar or Inspector, getting the Supervisor or a headmaster or a
Director by getting other pressures under way and thus the higher
echelons are made to bend.

See how in another context, professionals and those who matter tend to
"kow tow" when a Rahul Gandhi passes by -- which is NOT his fault --
yet he does not mind 'making a buck' of a different kind so that
possibly he eventually gets to warm the seat of the Premier, one day,
even though he is not guilty of ever wanting to own it now or in the
next general elections.
That is how our democracy gets defined by the best and the worst among
us-- as a nation-- that is how we are "corrupted". Which Lokpal will
arise to repair these major flaws in our national character?

Corruption should not merely be seen in relation to the ducats but
beyond in how loyal and sincere we are in what a Gandhi or a Vinobha
stood for.

One Baba lies in hospital room leaving the world after 4 months of
fasting because the Ganga is NOT getting cleaned while the other Baba
in the next room after 9 days is welcomed and put on every TV channel
seen breaking the fast and then declaring that he needs to pay his
taxes having made a buck that runs in hundreds of crores over the past
few years!!

You know what I am comparing and suggesting how we as a community and
a nation have eroded -- what our ideals were and what our Constitution
and what our Dharam stands for.

Our corruption today is of a kind we are running, at all our different
levels a nautanki of sorts (as Digvijai says in another, biased way)
unconcerned with the kind of standards we are laying down for those
who follow us in the family or in a neighbourhood or the Panchayat or
the local body and beyond in public work in the Legislatures and the
Houses of Parliament.
And the President cannot decide who must get hung or go inside for
life -- everything remains in an unending queue of sorts... to what
end? Who will get to do his/her job within a month, a year or 2-3
years or never...and not be accountable.
IT IS THAT BAD.

Thank you for listening.
Peace and regards
dev chopra -- soon will be 77
living in gurgaon -- where MNCs and high rises get made
but sewage and sanitation gets to be some one else's concern
not the HUDA or the MCG nor the DTCP... to what have you.
***

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Sudhakaran C K <sudhakaranck@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> First of all Prosecuting Sonia is not going to solve the corruption problem
> for ever?
>
> please note theat Anna Hazare had fasted in 1997 and ousted two corruption
> accused ministers in Maharastra Government. But did corruption reduced abit
> in Maharastra/ ... or has it grown further to Aadharsh flatrs heights?
> And I had asked Anna in JUly 1997:
> 'Are the new replacements for the ousted ministers clean personalities?
>  Anna replied: No; They are also corrupt.
> Me: Are other Ministers in Maharastra and other states and centre
> incorruptible clean persons?
> Anna: No. all politicians are corrupt.
> Me: So what benefit your hungerstrike and the ouster of those ministers
> brought to the nation, the society or the cmmon man in terms of corruption?
> .... I repeat this same question here?
> What difference prosecution of Sonia would bring to the nation on the
> corruption front/
>
> Such proposals are partisan and reactive.
> Try to be objective, and non partisan>
> If not we would reach nowhere in our reform efforts.
>
> Sudhakaran
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Devasahayam MG
> To: humjanenge@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 7:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [HumJanenge] CORRUPTION - Understanding and Removing It.
> See Link
> http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2011/06/seeking-pms-permission-to-prosecute-ms.html
>
> MGD
> ______________________________________________________________________________________-----
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Sudhakaran C K <sudhakaranck@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mr. Sarbjit and Mr. Anand..
>>
>> I do not know if you have noticed that I have been insisting on this
>> factor: that corruption is just a symptom of the basic flaw of our political
>> system.... the flaw that cause the abject 'Character crisis' in our
>> political leadership with the prevalence of the corrupt caucuses/dynasties
>> and their lackeys in political leadership.
>> And that fighting corruption directly, sans its flaw, is akin to fighting
>> the shadow mistaking it as the real target.
>>
>> RTI (proposed Lok Pal and the old CVC also) surely would have been a very
>> strong tool in a vibrant society with a fairly virtuous and competent
>> political leadership.
>> But with the present type of the political leadership (the wrong type of
>> Raja) the Praja and all other institutions would emulate them and the
>> corruption would continue to grow irrespective of new laws or institutions
>> created against it.
>>
>> Great India trust (www.greatindiatrust),
>> and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OurGreatIndia/ are dedicated to debate and
>> propagate this ideal.
>>
>> Cannot you consider to participating and contributing in that group?
>>
>> Sudhakaran
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Sarbajit Roy
>> To: humjanenge
>> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:25 PM
>> Subject: [HumJanenge] CORRUPTION - Understanding and Removing It.
>> Dear Shri Anand
>>
>> I think you shall find that this small mailing list has many domain
>> specialists in "corruption" with a large number of public servants (past /
>> present) and forces personnel subscribing. We also have the usual complement
>> of  "activists" who tend to be more vocal / shrill than our regular
>> membership.
>>
>> Corruption is certainly a complex issue to understand / deal with. The
>> middle class examples for black money generation you listed are primarily
>> IMHO due to the skewed and unrealistic taxation policies of the (financially
>> and morally bankrupt) Governments of the day which favour the
>> politician-mafia-middleman nexus to the detriment of middle class citizens
>> who are compelled to participate.in corruption against their will to avoid
>> losing out to sky-rocketing inflation and unjustified taxes. The lower
>> classes in turn have their own myriad sets of victimisation examples.
>>
>> In deliberately simplistic terms, my personal view is that corruption is a
>> a rapidly spreading CANCER which causes even healthy cells to turn black.
>> The homeopathic precriptions for this CANCER being touted by "quacks" (in
>> all senses of this word) are sweet placebos - being heavily promoted in the
>> media and by foolish people who should know better -  can never cure the
>> problem which affects Mother India.  It needs RADICAL SURGERY and before it
>> is too late.  If your house is somehow infested with cockroaches, will you
>> dial a number (.. "you are in the queque"...)  to be given a medicine which
>> MAY kill 1 cockroach after 2 YEARS (see wording of Jan Lok Pal Bill), OR
>> will you yourself pick up a can of HIT and start spraying judiciously OR
>> call in an efficient PEST CONTROL SERVICE ????
>>
>> Respectfully
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Y.P. Anand <ypanandindia@yahoo.co.in>
>> wrote:
>> Dear Shri Sarbjit Roy,
>> >Thanks for your comments on my note to Shri Devasahayam. I do not know
>> > who should be called a 'Gandhian'. That is also not the issue here. Each one
>> > of us has many component identities, and putting labels hardly helps.
>> >
>> >My note to Shri Devasahayam applies to everyone, including myself. With
>> > my long background experience, I do feel that the issue of 'Corruption'
>> > needs to studied much more thoroughly than it is being done by the activists
>> > at present. Corruption in its various forms is a wide-spread phenomenon in
>> > our society, particularly among the successful upper middle classes to which
>> > people like me belong. We need to be much more self-critical on this issue.
>> > Taking simple examples, black money is being generated all round through
>> > under-valued declarations of the amounts when we purchase/sell a property,
>> > when we make major additions/alterations to our houses/flats illegally, when
>> > we buy jewellery, vehicles, etc. without full receipts, when we under-state
>> > our incomes while filing incom-tax returns, and in numerous other similae
>> > cases.
>> >
>> >Corruption in all its forms must be opposed. Also, governments and the
>> > personnel involved must be held responsible wherever obvious failures to
>> > ensure integrity in public life come to notice. However, we get a right to
>> > speak on the subject only to the extent we have looked inwards also, and
>> > have assured ourselves of the facts in each case. Otherwise, it becomes a
>> > self-righteous outcry, which in the long run hardly ever helps the cause.
>> >
>> >YP Anand
>>  >
>>
>
>

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