Re: [IAC#RG] Alternate views on minorities, population, current events and governance

What some people commenting here (who are possibly BJP supporters) forget is that many others (who are neither Congress aficionados nor Lefties) doubt the process that brought this goverment to power. There was manifest widespread manipulation, mishandling and 'fixing' of EVMs, and no willingness on the part of a captive CEC (Gujarat cadre, with a sword hanging on his head re some past misdemeanor of his!) to count the VYPATS in public in a sample of booths. He was not answerable to us, the electorate, only to his erstwhile political masters. 

In May 2019 I saw news videos on many channels of EVMs being taken away from strongrooms by private vehicles,  dumped on roadsides, stored in BJP workers houses after polling near my locality, and unauthorized persons entering the premises of strongrooms at will. 

It has been demonstrated that it is very easy to preset and reset an Indian EVM before and after polling. If it becomes difficult, then it can always be changed!  According to an RTI filed in Mumbai, there were 2,000,000 EVMs that were not in the inventory of the ECI in 2019, although the three suppliers had listed their numbers and their consignments had been sent to ECI. These 2 million EVMs were never registered at the ECI. When asked, CEC lamely claimed he didn't know where they were. So many people suspect that these were the ones that  were used to fix the.votes for BJP  where they looked thin. And in case you ask, what about the states won by the opposition - the answer is, yes, those may have been rigged too! 

Thus saying CAA was passed by Parliament doesn't cut any ice with many people who do not think this Parliament is representative. Or that India is a genuine democracy. A bill passed by a majority of craftily elected persons, many of them with criminal records, some even with FIRs against them for murder, has become law. But can thinking people repose their trust in such a parliament to make laws that benefit all citizens equally? Their ministers and MLAs openly advocate violence against dissenters, students and select non-Hindu citizens.

As for the other pillars of democracy, we've seen how the media are held captive by political parties in India or pilloried and harassed by false ED cases if they try and be non-partisan and independent, and now we've seen how just months after demitting office the Chief Justice of India can directly go from retirement to the Rajya Sabha, allegedly in a quid pro quo for deflecting scrutiny of important matters related to national security (the Rafale deal) or passing judgements that are acceptable to the ruling party (Ayodhya and CAA matters). 

To be fair to Gogoi saheb,  his dealings on CAA probably reflected his personal views on citizenship - he  belongs to that most vociferous dominant group of Assam descended from the Ahom that have always demanded an end to infiltration by Bangladesh's economic and ecological. refugees, but who.have also in the past sided with the militant ULFA in getting rid of educated Bengali speaking citizens of India from their state including central goverment staff of important PSUs. 

This is ironic and perhaps can only happen in India where dominant caste groups capture power in states. The Ahom themselves should have had a little more sympathy for the extremely poor Bengali speaking peasants who till the chars and eke out a fragile existence along the shifting rivers of Assam. Because the Ahom - ethnic Tai-Ahom - themselves originated in mainland China. They  were driven out of Yunnan by the Qosot Mongols in the 13-14th century. Migrating to the Brahmaputra valley via Thailand they established a kingdom there which lasted over 500 years till it fell to the East India Company in the first half of the 19thcentury. The influx of poor Bengali speaking people allegedly from Bangladesh hasn't elicited any sympathy from Ahoms like J. Gogoi - he was one of the main votaries of the NRC in Assam which has put thousands of simple peasants, both Hindu and Muslim, with their children, into inhuman detention centres in the state. It has attempted to disenfranchise soldiers who have defended Indian borders because they were Muslim. And it is this 3-pronged NRP (started by the Congress along with Aadhaar on USAID advice), the discriminatory CAA and its final outcome, the NRC, that educated, thinking, fair-minded people all over India are protesting about - Hindus as well as non-Hindus. Jai Hind!

Joya Roy

PS: This is (probably) my last comment on this thread of mail. I shan't respond to any more posts that display ignorance of historical truths and scientific demographic analysis, intolerance for India's great cultural, ethnic and religious diversity, and tolerance for the disastrous economic policies of ruling parties (demonetization, digital India, compounding of NPAs of PSBs), their subservience to  foreign governments, their use of colonial sedition laws against dissenting students, and encouragement of hatred towards and mob lynching of people belonging to the dalit and minority communities. 

On Sun, 22 Mar 2020, 12:58 Anand Gangoli, <anandgangoli22@gmail.com> wrote:

 Malhotraji has brought out that none of the non BJP States have
supported CAA. But merely because of that, can we  say that the
opposition to CAA is not politically motivated ? After all, at present
all opposition parties are only interested in unseating BJP. They have
no other point common in their agenda. They will oppose anything that
the BJP passes. By all means states are entitled to their views, and
can express their opposition - by constitutional means. Is there any
thing constitutional about a state refusing to implement a law passed
by the centre?
The intention of the opposition was to  only to create a nation wide
unrest. If not, why did a senior and respected leader goad ill
informed public to take to the streets for "Aar paar ki ladai"?
Manohar Sharmaji has correctly brought out, an act  coming under union
list, passed after following  all the requisite parliamentary
procedures is binding on states. Citizenship is very much in the union
list. Refusing to implement the law is unconstitutional.

Jai Hind
Anand S Gangoli



On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:57 AM Manohar Sharma
<manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> The parliament as I understand represents whole of India.The states are represented in Rajya Sabha.The CAA was passed in TOTALLY democratic manner where all n everybody had chances to put up their views.And everyone expressed their views n then VOTED.After following the democratic n constitutional procedure,the President's signatures made it an act.
> When the violence against it started, it was not controlled first in WB where trains n railway stations were burnt n then in other places like Jamia,JNU etc.
> And What were the slogans shouted in these violent protests.They were,'free Kashmir,बुत उखाड़े जायेंगे और नाम रहेगा अल्ला का, हिन्दुओं से आज़ादी, हिन्दुत्व से आज़ादी, काफिरों से आज़ादी, जिन्ना वाली आज़ादी and ofcourse topped by a lecture n how to secede Assam by blocking the chicken neck following the Shaheen Bagh method.THERE WAS NOT WORD AGAINST CAA.
> To me they were stragically planned,well executed, funded by dubious sources n meant to tarnish India's image n huge support to Breaking India Forces.
> The right course was to go to SC,which was done but then we had the Harsh Mander inciting people that 'now only mobs on roads n streets will decide n parliament,SC cannot be trusted'.These are the very people जो हमेशा constitution, democracy  की दुहाई देते हैं.So now India should start a new tradition TO MAKE LAWS WHILE VIOLENCE IS UNLEASHED ON THE  ROADS.Constitution, Parliament be DAMNED
> Harish Salve had categorically negated all rumours, narratives and lies against CAA on NDTV.
> Now coming to NPR , NRC .Wasn't this proposal made by UPA in 2003 n Arif Mohammad Khan to Rajat Sharma clearly unmasked the signatories of the parliamentary report ,that envisaged them,which include among others Kapil Sibbal, Ambika Soni,Moti Lal Vora.And SPECIFIC MENTION WAS MADE THAT CITIZENSHIP MUST BE GRANTED TO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTED MINORITIES .What has changed now.Hatred against the duly elected government and spread of fears had perpetuated the suspicion.
> These two steps of NOR,NRC are absolutely essential for a country's well being which includes National Security.They are followed by all countries n India is no exception.The mistakes in Assam while conducting NRC under SC supervision MUST be corrected n these steps must be implemented for the sake of well being of India .
> Those States who have passed resolutions aganist CAA have committed violations against the constitution N are totally Unconstitutional , like I said in my last write up that CAA comes under UNION LIST.
> Manohar Sharma ________________________________
> From: ravindra malhotra <rnmalhotra_in@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:49:18 PM
> To: Manohar Sharma <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com>; indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net>; anandgangoli22@gmail.com <anandgangoli22@gmail.com>
> Cc: Prodipto Roy <prodipto.r@gmail.com>; rina.mukherji@gmail.com <rina.mukherji@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Alternate views on minorities, population, current events, and governance
>
> Statements in Para 1 of mail below are not wholly correct. No state, other than those ruled purely by BJP, have endorsed CAA and NPR in the form proposed by Central Govt. Allies of BJP have also asked for changes before implementation. In Bihar even BJP as part of coalition has asked for changes in formats. While CAA in present form by itself might have probably be needed, it is apprehended  by some that ultimate effect of CAA and NPR and later NRC can not be separated. Government has not only failed, it has almost refused to assuage these apprehensions.
>
> Apprehension in the mind of people seems to have arisen about need of  CAA and NPR in the present form, as even with laws existing prior to CAA, Govt could asked immigrants to apply and give citizenship as per its discretion.
>
> R.N.Malhotra
>
>
>
> On Saturday, March 21, 2020, 02:12:24 PM GMT+5:30, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
>
>
> To add to what Manohar Sharmaji has said. Joya Royji has put an interesting question. He has mentioned four states which oppose CAA. Telangana(UDF), West Bengal (Trinamool Congress), Tamil Nadu( ADMK)  , Kerala ( CPI (M)). All these parties have a single point agenda- to make India BJP Mukt. They have very little else in common. As against that we have 29 States in India. Are we to assume that the remaining 25 states are Gaddars, anti national and traitors? And so far no one has (at least on this forum) come up with any specific objections that they have to CAA. Does anyone really have any doubt that the opposition to CAA is politically motivated?
> All credit for Joya Royji for accepting some responsibility for the misdeeds of his ancestors. We should all learn from him. But I would suggest to him to put that behind him and not continue to be overburdened with a sense of guilt.  Let us move on . In the medieval ages, as he has brought out, Brahmins exploited lower castes and tribals. British exploited Indians. Muslims massacred Hindus. But we are now in the 21st century. All governments , across all parties, after our independence have formed policies and laws to help the Dalits , scheduled castes and tribals to come into the mainstream of life. To such an extent that many communities are trying to get themselves a scheduled caste status, as there is a perceived advantage now in being classified as scheduled caste.We have had some success in rehabilitating them. No doubt a lot more remains to be done.
> Let us emphasise on what needs to be done rather than to wallow endlessly in a sense of guilt.
> Jai Hind
> Anand Gangoli
>
>
> On Friday, March 20, 2020, Manohar Sharma <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Starting a reply with 'comments like this need no response' and then go on to reply in the form clarifying misrepresentation intrinsically has arrogance built in it.Be that as it may.
> If you think this govt's mindset is fascist etc you are welcome to your opinions.
> Your statement 'if the CAA were relevant to infiltration anywhere outside the northeastern states,why are many legislative assemblies are refusing to accept in its present form'."Are they then composed of anti-national, traitors-gaddars,who should be summarily shot ?
> First of all, CAA  has nothing to do with infiltration,it's about giving citizenship to religiously persecuted from Pakistan, Bangladesh n Afganistan.
> All legislative assemblies who have passed resolutions aganist the CAA are totally unconstitutional as the citizenship n it's variations comes under 'union list' of Indian constitution.I presume you are aware of union ,state n concurrent lists.
> Subsequent part of your statement is just your own imagination n deserves no comment.
> Your information or knowledge from personal  friends n relatives is not privy to me.I claim no such access of any kind whatsoever as for as Delhi riots are concerned.Thats why I said n maintain, that let the enquiry report be out to know the truth.Your emphasis that these sources are  'non muslims' is really very touching.
> Just because it's the girls that are defending boys(co students)  doesn't say law shouldn't be implemented.Before you jump to any conclusion,let it be decided after the enquiry.Because the 'sheroes' of Burkha Dutt were supporting the call of Sharjeel Imam who lectured the assembled people as to how to separate Assam by blocking the chicken neck like Shaheen Bagh.
> Your statement 'is protest against bad policies is anti national'.The answer is clear No.But protests don't mean burning of buses,trains, railway stations (WB) or destruction of  public property.Their protests have absolutely no authority to curb others rights to live a normal life like blocking of a road etc.
> When you bring in the history of 700 year old n what actions or atrocities your ancestors did, it obviously doesn't mean that you  agree n follow the same principles.Infact it's quite clear as you are critiquing them so you disagree with them.Well for the record let me state unequivocally that I abhor those acts myself too.
> I can't talk of 700 years but in the year 1963 when I was to join IAF  training as a cadet,my mother asked my father to conduct the ritual of तुला दान where grains n all kinds of metals equal to my weight are given as charity.It was supervised by my grandfather a प्रकांड पंडित.Please know that the all the grains n metals were given to family barber n sweeper who use to collect  our night soil.I was told to  wash their feet, offer them food n make equal halves n give it to them seek blessings by touching their feet.They in turn blessed me with long n prosperous life.
> Your critique of your own community is welcome.But creation of narratives based on  700 year old history n the 19 century reports vindicates my statement of flogging a dead horse n worse they  generate hatred against majority community.
> Things are changing like I explained in my previous write up.Old history has good n bad points both.Your  previous write up clearly brings out Hindu vs Muslims n how they are being victimized.Let me categorically say that my experience is just the opposite.More on that some other time.
> Manohar Sharma ________________________________
> Comments like this need no response but I need to clarify two things that misrepresent what I said. This happens when intellectual adversaries read and see completely different sets of data, be they news clips, social media videos, government pronouncements on recent events and first hand accounts of those events, or when they see the same data sets and get a completely different picture of what is really happening, according to.their habitual biases.
>
> My bias is to listen to the accounts of the victims of mob riots not of the perpetrators or instigators such as those who want their party followers or mobs to shoot people who object to the NRC-CAA. My idea of India is certainly not that of the fascist, anti-minority, anti-dissent, anti-democratic mindset of the present leadership. If the CAA were relevant to concerns about infiltration anywhere outside the North-Eastern states, why are many legislative assemblies in India refusing to accept it in its present form? Telengana, Tamil Nadu, West Bengal, Kerala have all objected to these legislations. Are they all then composed of anti-national 'traitors' - 'gaddars' who should be summarily shot ?
>
> My information on the injured girl students of Jamia who suffered serious injuries below their waists down to their private parts from police blows and prods comes from friends and relatives (non-Muslim, FYI) who are medicos/doctorates) who have seen their condition and heard their accounts of what happened. FYI, Jamia had many Hindu students who protested against the CAA alongside the Muslim students. But I also watched - as you must have - that video of the two Jamia girls preventing police from attacking their male co-student. You can see how police, or hired goons in police uniforms conveniently supplied to them, use their lathis as bayonets to poke flesh and pierce internal organs. In Jamia they blinded a.student. In JNU police beat up a blind student. Several Jamia girls needed surgery after the police attack. You would have seen the same videos and interviews. Is protest against bad government policies 'anti-national'? When students become docile like sheep a country is doomed.
>
> Secondly, I can't 'spread hate' against Brahmins who were my forebears. But I can critique the actions and mind-sets of some of them. 700 years ago when my Brahmin ancestors moved into the part of Bengal called Sylhet, now in Bangladesh, my father's birthplace, they systematically dispossesed the original adivasis - Khasis, Garos and Jaintias - driving these tribes into the hilly regions to the North, now known as Meghalaya. Brahmin and Rajput families took over all the rich cultivable lands of North Bengal. I have seen the same thing happen in Bihar and Jharkhand. Except that since upper castes have much greater mobility, access to modern education and economic opportunities, the educated among them lose their dependence on revenues from ancestral lands. Their dominance in rural areas has since been taken over by the OBCs in these two states except where Bhumihars - 'those who grab land' - still hold sway. Either way, it is the original settlers, the adivasis and many of those that we call SCs, who have been dispossesed, emisserated, trampled upon, in Eastern India. From my observations in the field including in my paternal ancestral village in Sylhet, my maternal ancestral area of Chandernagore, and my reading of 19th century  ethnographies, histories, colonial despatches and District Gazetteers of these places I can see what people of 'my kind' have done to the original ST-SC populations who first occupied these lands. Isn't it laughable to contend that my criticism of my own community constitutes an attempt to 'spread hatred'  against a particular community ?!
>
> Joya Roy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2020, 18:05 Manohar Sharma, <manohar.sharma@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are patently wrong statements made in Jaya Roy's write up
> 1.The killings in Delhi riots have had casualties on majority n minority communities equally (quote Rajdeep Sardesai)
> 2.The Jamia case still is under enquiry n full details are not out as yet.If they are ,then please put them up for public view. There are plenty of videos which indicate that they were not studemts at all but stone pelters brought in for the specified purpose.Studying in libarary with faces covered is rather odd,at least to me.But like I said,let the enquiry decide.
> 3.The CAA doesn't take anybody's citizenship.Mr Harish Salve has categorically negated all such rumours,agendas n lies on NDTV .The CAA is in SC n whether it's constitutional or not,they will take the call.Harish Salve thinks that CAA is constitutional n is the need to fullfill the promises made by our founding fathers
> 4.There is a narrative which is trying to portray Brahmins, upper castes etc in a planned manner which is replica of what Rajiv Malhotra decribes in his book 'Breaking India'.Looking at the manner these words are mentioned,there is clear motive of creating hatred against the majority community.This kind of flogging the dead horse has been going on in a systematic manner with a clear agenda since long. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER FORWARDED,OFFERED ANY KIND OF SOLUTIONS EXCEPT GENERATING HATRED WHICH IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT JUST CREATING FAULT LINES WHERE THEY DONT EXIST BUT EXPLOITING ALL THOSE WHERE SUCH FAULT LINES EXIST . Examples of foreign countries don't offer solutions.The Indian ground realities need to be checked n reported.I had earlier reported of lack of any discrimination during भंडारा in temples complexes in the village where I stay.I would like to add that a sample of ten villages who are involved in these three temples,must be considered a sure shot forward movement and not just wishy washy illusion.
> Manohar Sharma
>
>
> ______________________________ __
> From: indiaresists-request@lists.ris eup.net <indiaresists-request@lists.ri seup.net> on behalf of Prodipto Roy <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net >
> Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 2:12:32 PM
> To: Gopalkrishnan iyer <iyer_ga@yahoo.com>; indiaresists <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net >
> Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Brahminical views on minorities, population, current events, and governance
>
> It's typical of the selective perceptions of upper castes that they ignore both the latest official data analyses on population growth and the hate crimes and violence including rape, lynchings and murder of minority community members such as happened recently in North East Delhi with full cooperation of the police (not under Delhi govt.but under the central Home Ministry).
>
> They won't deign to see news videos or read about police attacking students in Jamia and JNU using their lathis not as sticks to  beat people with but as lethal bayonets. Thus they won't care to learn about how most of the girl students injured in the second round of police violence against Jamia protesters were hospitalised for grevious injuries to their stomachs, kidneys and private parts, i.e., all below the belt, as it were. Do these commentators  think it's okay to give them mob justice because they are minority students (most of them were Hindu, btw) or the 'anarya,' to whom upper caste rules of conduct towards adversaries don't apply ??
>
> Do these good Brahmins know that although it is Muslims who are targeted for disenfranchisement by the CAA, millions of poor, illiterate,  Hindus too will be cast into gulags called detention camps in the Northeast? Why do they overlook the fact that a majority of sane thinking Indians - those who have heads and sound cognitive faculties, that is - also oppose the NRC and CAA as being unconstitutional, a criminal conspiracy to disenfranchise millions of helpless citizens and non-Hindus. Even Hindus from upper class families will be unable to produce documents relating to place of origin of their parents and grandparents! Is this the India you want? Is this the government you want to support, that works against the Indian constitution and colludes with rabid mobs or paramilitaries who kill Muslims, adivasis, dalits, and dissenters with impunity?
>
> If the upper castes, particularly Brahmins, want to return to their erstwhile role as educators, intermediaries between humans and gods (read 'governments' in the present context), scientists, philosophers and policy makers, they must first study India's hoary traditions of logic, debate, valid cognition and Nyaya. After this process of re-education, they will  be able to critique their own false assumptions, blind spots, selective perception of what the government controlled media tell them and they may even appreciate what dissenters of all hues have been saying against the RSS-Golwalkar-VHP- Bajrangi Dali-BJP view of what India is.
>
> Joya Roy
>
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2020, 10:44 Gopalkrishnan iyer, <iyer_ga@yahoo.com<mailto:iyer _ga@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> All said and done our resources are getting depleted and it is necessary to contain numbers. Besides civilization continue to evolve and reforming ourselves is a must.
>
> Pursuant to "independence" the majority population in India rose by around 3 times whereas the "minority" rose by about 8-9 times, it appears!
>
> We have learnt many things over these periods and the current disturbed situations that minority want to dictate to the country how it should function.
>
> The violence that errupted recently and the hate speech that reverberated in the recent times further reinforces that one religion wants to rule the world, and particularly India. If the population grow in an unbalanced rate the minority will become majority sooner than later and would be at the helm of affairs.
>
> Assuming that democracy would continue, despite, a religion which exhort kill or convert as the directions of its lord, the theme and purpose exemplified beyond the slightest doubt and looking at the easy way of passing laws through ordinances it would not be out place to visualize that day when we all or our 2nd generation see  India pervading and dominating with today's minority!!
>
> These are my personal views and appologise if I have strayed away from topic!
> On Monday, 16 March, 2020, 09:31:44 pm IST, Anand Gangoli <indiaresists@lists.riseup.net <mailto:indiaresists@lists.ris eup.net>> wrote:
>
>
> What is important at this stage is to decide whether or not India
> should pass a law prohibiting Polygamy. It is immaterial whether some
> king in Hindu Mythology had 3 wives or 15, or whether some saint or
> prophet more than a thousand years ago had 4 wives or 13. Nor is it
> material whether our PM worships a red idol  or a black stone. What is
> important is that he is the elected Prime Minister and has every right
> to make laws that are beneficial to India. I  believe that polygamy is
> bad, and banning it would be beneficial to India. For many reasons.
> Population growth is one, the other is from the perspective of human
> rights-polygamy goes against the concept of equality between men and
> women. I am sure there would be others. Therefore I am very clear that
> our PM must make a laws abolishing Polygamy.
> Just to set the records straight with respect  Joya Royji's email of
> 15th. The campaign for abolishing sati was led by Raja Ram Mohan Roy-
> no one can take any credit away from him for uprooting this heinous
> practice. I should have mentioned his name in my earlier e mail.
> Apologies. But there was a lot of opposition to his proposal from the
> Hindu community. In spite of the opposition, Lord William Bentinck
> passed a law abolishing Sati in 1829.  This is one few good things
> that the British did for us.
> Coming to the subject of untouchability. Joya Royji has vastly
> exaggerated the problem of untouchability as it exists in the present
> time. Central and state governments do not discriminate when it comes
> to giving employment in government services. In fact they are giving
> increased opportunity for employment. There are punitive laws that
> discourage the practice of untouchability. All air travellers know
> that the cabin crew that serves refreshment on flight can be from any
> caste. The public sector Airline give preference to SC/ST candidate. I
> have never seen any passenger asking the cabin crew for his/her caste.
> If anyone were to do so, I am sure the Captain would be well within
> his/her rights to offload him. The same goes for any hotel/restaurant
> . Does anyone ask the waiter or a barber in a saloon what his caste
> is? Does anyone dare ask someone sporting a moustache or driving a car
> ( not easy to find anyone sitting on a horse these days !) what his
> caste is? The credit for this improvement should go to all governments
> who have held power since our independence.
> I hope most of us agree. Polygamy is bad and must go.
> Jai Hind
> Anand Gangoli
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 3:09 PM Anand Gangoli <anandgangoli22@gmail.com<mail to:anandgangoli22@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
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