Re: [IAC#RG] Fwd: OROP

Dear Maj. Gen. Ashok Coomar

Sir

I have not imputed anything which is not published by major news media
with in-house editorial processes.

1) Re: Gen VK Singh
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/general-vk-singh-age-row-lt-general-dalbir-singh-suhag/1/366727.html
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/vk-singh-makes-final-bid-to-derail-army-succession

also please note the word "supposedly" in my concerned email.

2) Re: Line-of-succession
Any reasonable person would surely agree that the Executive (since
Nehru) wants pliable / yer-men types appointed as Service Chiefs, and
this is all done with active connivance of MoD. We did not take sides
but attacked the practice of misusing courts, indirectly through
proxies or directly (like Admiral Bhagwat's famously withdrawn PIL).

I reiterate that all servicemen (present / former) should silently
press for total separation
of Army and politicians and to ensure that the procedure for selection
of the service chiefs must be foolproof and ensure their autonomy and
integrity. Once we have honest, efficient, apolitical men of integrity
heading our forces only then should issues like OROP be taken up.

I am very sorry to say our respected IESMs OROP agitation is lowering
the prestige of the unified forces and allowing the 'netas' to get
away with mega-scam purchases in dubious defence deals (INS
Vikramaditya deal is only a small example of what is to follow - this
deal was entered into by BJP/NDA-I sarkar on 20 Jan 2004)... Seemingly
IESMs are being bribed with OROP to look the other way

Sarbajit

On 10/25/15, Maj Gen Ashok Coomar <coomar.ashok@gmail.com> wrote:
> *Dear General,*
> *Many thanks for replying to Mr Sarabjit with such clarity and sound logic
> conforming to the present day environment in the armed forces. It presents
> your erudition at its best.*
> *Mr Sarabjit, though appearing to be meaning well, has many gaps or grey
> areas in his knowledge of the armed forces which cloud his thinking. Before
> Mr Sarbjit takes umbrage on this I must hasten to cite two examples from
> his mail to Col Nauni appended below.*
> *He accuses Gen VK Singh of trying to fix Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag in
> order to facilitate his daughter's father-in-law's becoming chief perhaps
> after Gen Bikram Singh. He imputes these allegations without checking his
> facts as VKS had initiated the case against DBS when he was Eastern Army
> Cdr and DBS Corps Cdr. His daughter got married to Lt Gen Ashok Singh's son
> after had retired more than three years later.How could he have then tried
> to facilitate Ashok Singh's elevation years in advance?*
> *At another place he accuses VKS for not having objected to Admiral Ramdas
> and other "foreign funded" persons from interceding of his behalf in his
> DOB case. I am sure Mr Sarbjit must be aware of that the "line of
> succession" theory was part of larger conspiracy to retire VKS at a
> particular time to facilitate elevation of Bikram Singh. The whole
> manipulation was repugnant to many including me because of blatant nepotism
> indulged by the government. And in such circumstances why should VKS or any
> one have objected to any help coming from any quarter even if funded by
> foreign sources as Mr Sarbjit alleges? More over where is the requirement
> to turn down such help and how does one get to know this "dubious nature"
> of help.*
> *The above clarifications not withstanding no one can deny that there exist
> many corrupt practices in the armed forces which need to be addressed. Your
> suggestions are steps in that direction.*
> *Lastly it is not at all fair to single out the armed forces (which alone
> deliver without fail) for economy when every other arm of the government
> (which keep failing in their assigned role) enjoy unlimited profligacy
> indulged by the government.*
> *Ashok Coomar *
>
> On 22 October 2015 at 11:31, Randhir Phagura <rsphagura@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Sarbjit,
>>
>> You are very right in the observations that you have made. The Army, at
>> least, does require reforms. But you overlook some aspects which have
>> direct bearing on the issue raised by you.
>>
>> The first one is that the soldiers & officers of the Armed Forces are
>> also citizens of the country as also in the case of other armies of the
>> world. It is these citizens who are suitably selected, disciplined and
>> trained to become soldiers and officers in the Armed Forces. Hence, our
>> National Characteristics remain ingrained into them. These
>> 'characteristics' such as selfishness, over-arching ambition beyond one's
>> capabilities, opportunism, nepotism, favour-seeking, dishonesty and
>> craftiness do not go away merely by training and discipline. We as a
>> nation
>> require a phase of thorough 'Human Resource Development' in order to come
>> up to a comparable standard to other nations. Unfortunately, our leader
>> remain oblivious to such national failings. In the absence of such
>> corrective action, however, these moral qualities are sliding down
>> further
>> and further. I am in my early eighties and in the course of my life, thus
>> far, I have seen these standards deteriorating not only in the Army but
>> also in the civil life. Even though, the strict discipline and threat of
>> certain and quick retribution keeps these under check to quite some
>> extent,
>> in the Armed Forces, as compared to the Civil Life. It is, however, very
>> difficult to keep Armed Forces as an 'island of virtue' in a 'quagmire of
>> evil'. They cannot be kept isolated from civil in their cantonments, to a
>> greater extent than at present. After all, they do come in contact with
>> their Civil counterparts, relations, friends and acquaintances in their
>> day
>> to day functioning and especially during their leave. They see what is
>> happening outside the Armed Forces and internally rebel against the
>> disciplined system that binds them. Hence, whenever they get an
>> opportunity, they also tend to taste the 'forbidden fruit'.
>>
>> Hence, these malaise are not only with the Armed Forces but more so with
>> the Civil Society. Till the time that it was rectified at the roots from
>> where the Armed Forces Personnel come, we cannot get rid of these ills
>> completely.
>>
>> But that does not mean that one should accept these as a 'fait accompli'.
>> Because, such afflictions are much more dangerous and injurious in the
>> Armed Forces and require urgent corrections than in the Civil. In the
>> Armed
>> Forces, the authorities are generally very alert to such ills and do take
>> corrective actions with much more alacrity than in the Civil. But then,
>> again, there are other set of our negative National Characteristics such
>> as
>> 'Complacency', 'Status quo ante' attitude and sheer indolence that hinder
>> positive and drastic action.
>>
>> Added to the above, is the discriminatory treatment of the Armed Forces
>> by
>> the politicians and bureaucrats. Leave aside the OROP, the protocol of
>> the Armed Forces as compared to the All India Services has been
>> systematically lowered. They have given themselves Non-Functional Upgrade
>> (
>> NFU), a hefty rise, and via that also OROP but have denied the same to
>> the Armed Forces. The pension of the other ranks in the Armed Forces was
>> lowered in 1973 from 70% of last salary to 50% of salary while at the
>> same
>> time increasing pension of Civil Services from 30% of salary to 50% of
>> salary. These could not have been done without consent of the politicians
>> in charge. These discriminatory dealings affect morale of the Armed
>> Forces
>> and do not help in eradication of evils indicated by you. Why should only
>> the Armed Forces be concerned about swelling pension budgets while the
>> others are so liberal with their own emoluments and pensions? The concern
>> that you have raised for heavy pension budgets must be tackled by the
>> Govt
>> on equitable terms and not only for the Armed Forces.
>>
>> There is yet another aspect that of 'proof of the pudding'. While the
>> Armed Forces have performed their Role well and to the appreciation of
>> the
>> Nation in every aspect whether it was in war or in peace, the Civil
>> Services have been found wanting in the fulfilment of their Role badly.
>> See
>> the maladministration everywhere, numerous multi-crore corruption
>> scandals, sad state of law and order and so on. In fact, I am reminded of
>> a
>> couplet in Urdu: "Rag rag mein hai naasoor, nashtar lagaein kahaan
>> kahaan";
>> meaning that 'the malady is wide-spread in the body, in every vein; where
>> all should we operate'. Under these circumstances, you be the judge as
>> to,
>> who deserved better salaries and pensions: the Armed Forces or the Civil
>> Services.
>>
>> As to the denouncing of 'political' generals and admirals, I can assure
>> you that the personnel of the Armed Forces especially the officer resent
>> such actions hugely. But unlike in the Civil Services where a movement
>> was
>> started (some time back) to find 'the most corrupt IAS officer' in UP, in
>> the Armed Forces such movements cannot be allowed. these not only affect
>> their morale but also leads to extreme indiscipline. Hence, these need to
>> be tackled by the Govt. Why do the politicians interfere in the rank
>> structure of Armed Forces at the higher echelons? Why the various state
>> Govts are allowed to bid for their candidates in the higher echelons of
>> Armed Forces? It is they who should desist from such actions and let
>> fairness play its intended role.
>>
>> Maintaining strong and efficient Armed Forces is an all round
>> responsibility of the politicians, bureaucrats, academics, in fact, the
>> entire Nation at large.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Randhir Phagura
>> Maj Gen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Jagdish Nauni <jagdishnauni@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Sarabjit
>>> Apologies for not replying to your mail earlier and now also I will only
>>> say that every right thinking Offr of the Indian Armed Forces and may be
>>> even every Indian who has any concern for such matters will agree with
>>> "last para of your mail". And be rest assured that any issue of
>>> corruption
>>> in the Armed Forces you raise, you will find me among your front line
>>> supporters.
>>> It does not mean that I agree with every thing you have written, may be
>>> in next few days I will give my comments. Not that I want to drag you
>>> for
>>> any worthless discussion but because I am sure, if I am able to clear
>>> you
>>> bias,exchanging ideas with you will be really worth it. As it is, in the
>>> past on many occasions I have voted in favour of many issues against
>>> corruption your group has raised
>>>
>>> Warm Regard
>>> Col Jagdish Nauni, Veteran
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
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>>>>
>>>> Dear Col Nauni,
>>>>
>>>> If you play the patriotism card with us to make your case we can easily
>>>> trump with corruption and politicised Army cards
>>>>
>>>> I can't possibly disagree with your list of 'shaheeds' and what the
>>>> institution of the Army stand for.. It is the same concern for the
>>>> INSTITUTION that causes me to speak out against the spiraling RAT-RACE
>>>> for
>>>> pensions encapsulated by OROP.
>>>>
>>>> Do you not sense that future govts will be so overwhelmed by
>>>> burgeoning
>>>> pension payments to veterans that they will be forced to CUT DOWN on
>>>> the
>>>> FUTURE manpower. Doesn't anybody teach basic maths like 1+1<>3 in the
>>>> Army
>>>> - or the laws of EXPONENTIATION?
>>>>
>>>> Its the same kind of problem Japan faced with its pension scheme, the
>>>> contributions from young workers in a highly automated robotised
>>>> environment were insufficient for payments to retireees who were living
>>>> longer and longer. The pension contributions from the young grew so
>>>> large
>>>> that employers could not afford to keep so many permanent employees
>>>> leading
>>>> to massive job cutbacks and increasing automation. Japan consequently
>>>> had a
>>>> huge population of unemployed youth caused by its bloated social
>>>> security
>>>> system skewed to keep the old alive.
>>>>
>>>> Are faujis so self-centred nowadays that they can't see that this OROP
>>>> agitation is inspired by vested interests who want to whittle down
>>>> India's
>>>> standing army and its biggest asset -- our soldiers. Have you ever
>>>> wondered
>>>> that Mr. Anil Ambani is now being encouraged to enter Defence
>>>> production
>>>> after mucking up every almost business he had turned his hand to ?
>>>>
>>>> Beyond Col Ketchup I could have equally cited lesser known names like
>>>> Brig/Maj.Gen/Lt.Gen S.K.Sahni who got promoted thrice using highly
>>>> litigative tactics in Delhi High Court and misled many officers like
>>>> Lt.Gen.Kishan Pal to recommend him as a jolly good fellow. And what to
>>>> speak of Lt.Gen Dahiya who accused Gen Sahni of being out to fix him as
>>>> tit-for-tat.
>>>>
>>>> And how about Gen V.K Singh who supposedly tried to fix Gen DS Suhaag
>>>> to
>>>> ensure the line of succession for his own daughter's father-in-law Gen
>>>> A.K.Singh to be next COAS ?
>>>>
>>>> Anyone reading the judgments of service matters and CoIs for Armed
>>>> forces will be amazed at the lengths "you people" will go to to get
>>>> promoted to the General staff.
>>>>
>>>> And how is it that Gen VK Singh never objected that Admiral Ramdas and
>>>> other foreign financed veterans interceded on his behalf on the D-o-B
>>>> issue. As far as we are concerned the whole bloody lot on both sides at
>>>> the
>>>> top were equally corrupt and selfish when it comes for ensuring "their"
>>>> lines of succession and their pensions.
>>>>
>>>> PS: I am sure that you also recall the insufferable Gen B.M Kaul and
>>>> his
>>>> forward policy 'qua' China which caused 1962 and so much loss of life,
>>>> prestige and territory.
>>>>
>>>> In such light do you disagree that there should be a total separation
>>>> of Army and politicians, and the highly politicised Generals and
>>>> Admirals
>>>> should be roundly denounced from within the services ? Do you not also
>>>> agree that the procedure for selection of the service chiefs must be
>>>> foolproof and ensure their autonomy and integrity ?
>>>>
>>>> Sarbajit
>>>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Major General Ashok Coomar
>