Saturday, January 5, 2013

Re: [IAC#RG] Citizens to attach ID proof with RTI applications: HC

Mandar

The RTI Act distinguishes between information "dissemination" (ie. proactively / suo-moto) to the entire world, and information "disclosure" (ie. on formal application to be provided to AN INDIAN CITIZEN - WITHIN INDIA on payment).

In the 2nd case, the public authority can demand proof of the above 2 criteria before disclosing the information.

PS: I haven't read the PHC judgment as yet.

Sarbajit

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 2:11 AM, Mandar Jog <mandarjog@gmail.com> wrote:
I think we should be able to request this anonymously.

RTI act Chapter II, 1(a) says that the public authority should have this info computerized and easily accessible.

Someone had to put in an RTI request because information that should have been public was not public.
If the information was public in the first place, it could have been accessed anonymously.

I understand that we should protect the system from requests whose only intent is to burden the system, but there are other ways to achieve that. 

Whether some information is public or not does not and should not depend on who is asking for it.

- Mandar

[IAC++] What Indian college women college students think on assault on women ?

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Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

It may be anything but injury caused death ultimately so it is murder that is why 302.
Dr. Sanjay Chaturvedi
1/188 Delhi Gate
Agra 282002
India- blackberry 9412261575

-----Original Message-----
From: Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 14:47:55
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Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

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Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

Vidyutji this is what happening in most of the cases in our country. Every time we find main accused sidelined and sundry elements get overfocussed and even punished.

On 5 Jan 2013 15:09, "Vidyut Kale" <wide.aware@gmail.com> wrote:
I was wondering of the impact of broadcasting a show in which the "only witness" condemns the role of all except rapists in the fate of the victim - the day before the rapists go on trial for murder - the only charge to justify demand for death penalty as per our laws applicable in this case. What does it mean to the case if public apathy, police delays and hospital's lack of caring contributed to the infection that finally killed her? While it is undoubtedly true (along with her last minute Singapore trip), if we want rapists hanged, how useful is it to bring this up after chargesheet is filed and on the evening before trial begins?

Vidyut

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Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

Dear all,


I agree with Vinitaji. We should also introspect about our own reaction to the incident. The revolutionary measures that we have been suggesting also fly in our face. everybody was on a revenge trip and that too revenge of the most primitive kind. stone them, hang them, hang them by the genitals, burn them alive, shoot them etc etc. This is the real face of our civil society which is more uncivil than civil when faced with a crises. 

I saw the entire interview yesterday and the following facts emerged from it:

1- That People are by and large mute spectators when such an incident takes place. These people are also part of Civil Society!

2- That the government has failed to clear the bottleneck about police jurisdiction although this question has been debated for a long time and thousands of people have suffered due to the pathetic attitude of Police in cases of accidents etc.

3- That the confusion about medico-legal cases is also unresolved though some rulings of the supreme court are already in force. The government has not taken the matter with the seriousness it deserves.

4- That the government hospitals are not the best places to deal with trauma cases of this seriousness. Either the government should equip them better or allow the police to take the patient to the best of hospitals for treatment.

5- That People working in government departments consider that due performance of their task deserves extra reward. Perhaps they treat their salary as retainer ship amount.

6- The media coverage of the event shows that even people who have the responsibility to think about such problems have failed us. Instead of thinking about the root causes of such problems and suggesting effective solutions, they  start reacting in a knee jerk fashion and shouting at each other for making their point. This shows the bankruptcy of our intellectual class. 

Last but not least, we keep blaming systems and avoid blaming persons responsible to run the system. People make systems and run them, so even if it is a systemic failure, we are responsible for it. The man devising and manning the system is accountable.

The candid interview has shaken us and the young boy should be thanked for it. 
Besides everything else, he has shown us the mature and balanced manner in which one can express truth without showing any rancor against any person or class. 

naveen tewari

  

On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Vinita Damodaran <v.damodaran@sussex.ac.uk> wrote:

Dear all

The most recent relevation by the male victim of the rape incident on Zee TV indicts not just the rapists but the police and the  general public for  failure to do their duty. What he says is truely shocking, that the poor girl in her grieviously injured state along with him had to wait for two hours before they received medical attention. That passersby including vehicles just did not bother to stop. That the police refused to get their hands dirty and delayed taking up the case for 45 minutes. This apathy pervades our urban society and pur institutions. What a sorry indictment of the  society we live in. Surely the police should take some responsibility for criminal negligence in getting medical help for the victims. We all should be ashamed.

yours

Vinita  Damodaran


From: indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net [indiaresists-request@lists.riseup.net] on behalf of Jagjit Ahuja [jagjit.ahuja@gmail.com]
Sent: 04 January 2013 12:14

To: indiaresists@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

You are right . No one is blaming the pillars  of governance - the politicians , the  bureaucrats and the judiciary . They either  play blame game or start giving sermons   when such incidents take place .
It is pity that they  have been given all the powers but no responsibilty and accountability . Otherwise people like Delhi Police Commissioner Neeraj Kumar should have been suspended on the spot  for deriliction of his duties.
Where as  Netas rather tried to cover up his lapses with excuses to ensure that  he retains  his post to toe their lines . In this case Neeraj  finds  time to preach "Don't go out late in the night to avoid getting raped,"
The day they start doing what they are paid to do,  such incidents will get reduced .


Brig J S Ahuja
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:24 AM, SC Sharma <scsharma48@hotmail.com> wrote:

I do NOT for even a moment believe that the public expression was ONLY against rape. 
It was against the general mis-governance, lack of law & order and sociatel lack of respect for women.  The Rape on wheels was ONLY the LAST STRAW.
 We need to consider whether we can go overboard on just this one issue.
Today it is rape, tomorrow it will be something else. 
We need talk about JUST enforcement of LAW and a system to create the fear in criminals that they won't get away.
 

Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 08:08:07 +0530
From: rbpurohit4productivity@gmail.com
To: indiaresists@lists.riseup.net
Subject: Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

Rape is a rape. Sex without consent and with minors of both sexes. Breach of contractual consensus sex may be kept in another category. Frivolous complaints can be screened. A swift action has to be taken moment a rape takes place or going to take place by mandatory information by any to police by bringing it under cpc similar to counterfeit currency. This will ensure evidence to convict. Some volunteers may be appointed from mohalla to report suspected movements. All drunk movement after sunset should be arrested.  A Sinhapore type smart nameplates should be made compulsory. ELECTRONIC MONITORING  should be installes. Banglore has gps installed in  all buses. All this is not exclusive. Like selling goods or services with sexist theme like Axe deoderant. Or making woman as object of desire. Ads films events rave parties and so on. No Paturia items. No munnis jalebis sheilas chamelies or S Leone whatever.
Regards to all well meaning Suggestions,
Ratanlal Purohit
On 02-Jan-2013 7:44 PM, "Sujata Madhok" <sujatamadhok@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Mada, 

If women were women's worst enemies they would go around raping each other. They don't. It is some (not all) men who are women's worst enemies. Please don't go around repeating sexist cliches. These are part of the anti-woman culture of our society, as are sexist jokes. These attitudes need to change if we are to build a more just and equal society,

Sujata Madhok
New Delhi




On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Vidyut Kale <wide.aware@gmail.com> wrote:
This is fiction men have created to feel better about their own treatment of women (there is a whole list of such fictitious creations). It has no basis in fact. Men continue to be the largest perpetrators of violent crimes against women (and men). Social suppression, discrimination, etc are male led too, though women participate.

More importantly, don't patronise me. sharing an insight is not the same thing as open invitation to attribute intent.


On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Vishvanath Mada <vishmada@hotmail.com> wrote:
Strangely it is the women who 
are the biggest enemies of woman.

Therefore, I would appreciate it if such fiction was not shared as an agreement with what I said - it is not the same thing to hesitate to change the subject of an email and to be own enemy - as you can clearly see from my reply (this email) to something that I believe is not in my interest.

Hope the distinction makes sense.

Vidyut

--
Vidyut
Twitter: @Vidyut
Phone: Allergic
Telephone: Forget it.
Mobile phone: Forgot

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Re: [IAC#RG] Murder of a young girl in Delhi (was sexonwheels)

I was wondering of the impact of broadcasting a show in which the "only witness" condemns the role of all except rapists in the fate of the victim - the day before the rapists go on trial for murder - the only charge to justify demand for death penalty as per our laws applicable in this case. What does it mean to the case if public apathy, police delays and hospital's lack of caring contributed to the infection that finally killed her? While it is undoubtedly true (along with her last minute Singapore trip), if we want rapists hanged, how useful is it to bring this up after chargesheet is filed and on the evening before trial begins?

Vidyut

Re: [IAC#RG] caring for girls and women

I agree with Brig.  Ahuja. Since independence we are being fooled , by adopting the same colonial master's tactics.

Administration preserved the facility, where executive has higher privilege than a judge.  Executive can merrily misinterpret law ( rules and public policy) to suit own and master's requirement because , he acts in secrecy. His proceedings are secret. Only order delivered.

But a judge cannot secretly misinterpret law. He has to work in open and does not enjoy secrecy for his proceedings.

Justice hence is getting compromised by the imbalance. Police and machinery under executive perforce operate to master's convenience.

This facility is abused by corrupt to mismanage trillion rupee budget to serve private purpose, denying public service. Elections are funded by them as a business.

Their prime object is to sabotage public purpose. How can you expect any law or rule to serve public purpose?

The stakes being high media, intellectuals are all effectively manipulated, perception management take an over.

You may get stronger laws. Worth only a piece of paper.

It is only a matter of correcting the business rules of govt. of India, as issued by Cab.Sec with cabinet approval which needs to be tweaked. Purely an executive action. But executive never will do this. They are mortally scared of even if some one tries to suggest. What is that tweak?

All govt orders shall be published along with proceedings on file, duly scanned on web.

That is all. Looks too simple. You may think RTI helps. But no. Only after damage is done, at the discretion of executive, rationed sanitised bits supplied under RTI.  There also govt creates labyrinth of bureaucracy and already activists find another RTI over RTI working will be needed.

Even lives are taken if activist reaches too sensitive an information.

So to prevent bad orders, we must insist on complete proceedings along with order be made public.

Then what happens?

When any bad order hurting public interest is issued, press, aggrieved , activists have full access to proceedings to expose the culprit in government. Courts too will have full material to prevent the order from taking effect.

Just think. Then persons with corrupt background find govt power of no use to their primary purpose of mismanaging the huge govt funds and assets like spectrum or land.

So they will stop funding elections. Then honest will find easier to enter govt to primarily serve public.

The attitude of police and other law order agencies which have become dysfunctional now, will come back to implementing laws honestly under honest masters.

So do not blame police. They are mere villains of circumstance.

But I request IAC to join me and send the above analysis and demand for correction of Business rule of Govt of India , to make it mandatory to scan and web post complete file proceedings with orders in all matters involving public finance and assets.

Please publicise , circulate to educate all innocent activists.

Let intellectuals and service persons here combine and move Supreme Court with this material, that executive cannot have higher privilege than justices. Then justice is denied under the constitution to common man.

Pray act to save our nation.

Rajaram Bojji  FIE., FNAE
+91 9885700007

On Jan 5, 2013 12:47 PM, "Jagjit Ahuja" <jagjit.ahuja@gmail.com> wrote:
Appointment of such commissions is an eye wash being followed as a standard operating procedure since independence  . It is mainly done to gain time in silencing the public voice and also to benefit monetarily these retired officials who have been favouring   the Netas when they were in power .
The real problem lies in our governing system . No one  blames the pillars  of governance - the politicians , the  bureaucrats and the judiciary . They either  play blame game or start giving sermons   when such incidents take place .
It is pity that they  have been given all the powers but no responsibility and accountability . Otherwise  both  Delhi Police Commissioner and Transport Commissioner  should have been suspended on the spot  for dereliction of  their duties.They have been the real culprits.Where as  Netas try to cover up their lapses with excuses to ensure that  they  retain their posts to toe their lines .
 The day they start doing what they are paid to do,  such incidents will get reduced. .


Brig J S Ahuja
Sujata Madhok
Thank you Mr. Purohit for your lucid suggestions. Thank you especially for yo...
9:38 PM (10 hours ago)

Rajaram Bojji
The innocent looking practice of hiding govt file with proceedings while orde...
8:45 PM (10 hours ago)

Jagjit Ahuja <jagjit.ahuja@gmail.com>
7:33 AM (6 minutes ago)

to indiaresists
Munni and Sheela are part of the society. The entire protest has been  against the poor governance and corrupt law & order enforcement agencies. Currently they, having all the powers with zero accountability, are operating to feed Netas to remain in power .
Had the governing system suspended the Commissioner Delhi Police , the entire scene in the country would have changed? Today we would not have rapists as MLAs and MPs as our elected representatives. Their kith and kin have been another lot who are responsible for all such acts without getting caught.
We need to bring responsibility and accountability at all levels in the governing system . And above all changes in judicial system for speedy actions . This can only create fear in criminals that they can not  get away , irrespective of their  position in the entire governing system.






On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Major Tomar

1) How will making prostitution legal give "poor" girls security in life ?

2) Does the sections of IMTP Act say anything about the prostitutes ? All I could decipher were sections about brothel keepers and landlords.

3) Actually the people who are calling to make prostitution legal are fronts for the mafia who have opened all these hi fi guest houses all oevr Delhi in name of CWG-2010 and mixed land use, and now are using them as brothels. making prostitution legal will simply enable professional girls from all over the worlds to come and ply their trade here openly. So to the extent that it very slightly reduces the hafta to police, shady lawyers and MCD, the IAC shall publicly support legalisation of prostitution without getting into the moral issues. It has hardly anything to do with "poor" girls which is only sleight of hand to distract the "aam aadmi"

Sarbajit

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:33 PM, sangeeta tomar <tomarsangeeta27@gmail.com> wrote:

THE IMMORAL TRAFFIC (PREVENTION) ACT, 1956

Definitions.—In this Act.

(a) "brothel" includes any house, room, conveyance or place, or any portion of any house, room, conveyance or place, which is used for purposes of sexual exploitation or abuse for the gain of another person or for the mutual gain of two or more prostitute.

 

(j) "Trafficking police officer" means a police officer appointed by the Central Government under subsection (4) of Section 13.

 

3. Punishment for keeping a brothel or allowing premises to be used as a brothel.— (1) Any person who keeps or manages, or acts or assists in the keeping or management of, a brothel shall be punishable on first conviction with rigorous imprisonment for a term of not less than two years and which may extend to three years and also with fine which may extend to ten thousand rupees and in the event of a second or subsequent conviction, with rigorous imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than three years and which may extend to seven years and shall also be liable to fine which may extend to two lakh rupees

(2) a any person who,—

(a) being the tenant, lessee, occupier or person in charge of any premises, uses, or knowingly allows any other person to use, such premises or any part thereof as a brothel, or

(b) being the owner, lessor or landlord of any premises or the agent of such owner, lessor or landlord, lets the same or any part thereof with the knowledge that the same or any part thereof is intended to be used as a brothel, or is wilfully a party to the use of such premises or any part thereof as a brothel, shall be punishable on first conviction with imprisonment for a term which may extend to two years and with fine which fine which may extend to two thousand rupees and in the event of a second or subsequent conviction, with rigorous imprisonment for a term which may extend to five years and also with fine.

 

WHY I SHARED THIS LAW POSITION WITH YOU ALL-----POINT I WISH TO MAKE

 

1.GB ROADS are places where women/young girls are tortured—CAN ANYONE DENY---NO

 

2. IS THERE NO LAW------NO---------Law is in place and clear --- any  knowingly allows any other person to use such premises as brothel –imprisonment two years

3. How many of the owners are accused, tried and punished under this section 2 of this Act till date.

4. Has Govt appointed trafficking police officer in these area-----if YES---- then what are they doing?

5. IF THE LAW IS IMPLIMENTED CAN AREAS LIKE GB ROAD EXIST---NO

6.ORGANISATIONS AS HUGE AS CRY COLLECT MONEY FROM PUBLIC FOR THESE GIRLS TO REHABILITATE THEM ------------WILL THAT MONEY BE REQUIRED IF THERE ARE NO SUCH AREAS.

7.DO WE NEED MONEY TO CLOSE THESE AREAS-------NO

 

THEN WHY DONT EVERYONE ASK GOVT (WHO EVER IS IN POWER) TO IMPLIMENT THIS LAW

 

OR

SCRAP THIS LAW AND MAKE PROSTITUTIONS LEGAL SO THAT THESE POOR GIRLS AT LEAST HAVE SOME SECURITY IN LIFE AND HAVE LEGAL RIGHTS.

 

NOW YOU ALL KNOW THE LEGAL POSITION------------------ITS TIME FOR YOU AND NGO'S LIKE CRY TO START THINKING AND ACT --------------HOW?

 

1. FILE FIR AGAINST THESE OWNERS!

2. STOP FUNDING AND DONATING TO BIG NGO'S LIKE CRY FOR REHBILITATING THESE GIRLS BECAUSE THIS KEEPS THE MONEY IN CIRCULATION FOR WRONG PURPOSES.INFACT CRY NOG SEND YOUNG GIRLS DOOR TO DOOR TO COLLECT MONEY FOR THE NGO EXPOSING THESE GIRLS TO DANGER OF BEING RAPED.


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